Indonesian, English or the other way around?

Royston · 19th February 2022, 04:25 PM

I have had this Indonesian knife for a long time and often wondered about the origin of the hilt.
Found this Bowie on the net and I think the question of origin is answered.
What do you think? Copied or " borrowed "
Roy

Royston · 19th February 2022, 04:31 PM

The title should say "way" not " war"

Mel H · 19th February 2022, 05:44 PM

I would tend to go for the Borrowed. The Sheffield 'Cutlery' Rococo, pistol handled Bowies were popular in the US during the 19th C. Some were silver and some plated. Similar handles are seen on antique meat carving cutlery sets.

Sajen · 19th February 2022, 06:25 PM

Hello Roy,

The knife itself is a peurawot from Aceh I guess, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=aceh. English bread handles sometimes seen on knives from mainland SEA, it's the first time I saw an English handle with an Indonesian blade.

Regards,
Detlef

kai · 19th February 2022, 09:22 PM

Hello Detlef & Mel,

I agree that the hilt is most certainly borrowed. The British had a strong presence, especially on Sumatra, and kept trading even after the Dutch took over again (but still had not taken over all of Sumatra until into the 20th century).

However, this is not from greater Aceh and, thus, not a peurawot. Typical peurawot have a classic blade shape while there are also some examples exhibiting deviating blade shapes like the one shown by Detlef.

This scabbard is different despite some similarities in carving at the mouth. Details are not Aceh style though.

This blade is a rawit. If this ensemble got not assembled by one of the Batak groups, the blade might as well had travelled to one of the coastal communities and trading ports and possibly got adapted locally. Just brainstorming though.

Closeups of the carving might help to place it (please include both sides and a top view, Roy).

Regards,
Kai

Mel H · 20th February 2022, 01:25 AM

Is it possible that the style of the carving on the scabbard is influenced by the swirling decoration on the pommel? There does seem to be some resemblance. As Kai remarks, British goods were everywhere in the 19th C.

kai · 20th February 2022, 08:41 AM

Hello Mel,

Quote:

Is it possible that the style of the carving on the scabbard is influenced by the swirling decoration on the pommel? There does seem to be some resemblance.

This kind of carving of a protrusion at the scabbard mouth is traditional and fairly widespread in the greater Straits region - with more or less local differences in the details.

I'd posit that it rather was the other way round: The hilt got selected because it was thought to be a nice (and possibly exotic) match with the local style/taste. Kinda ironic that it found its way back to GB.

Of course, the possibility can't be excluded that a broken/missing hilt got replaced by a creative Englishman with access to local spare parts. The hilt does look very well worn though.

Regards,
Kai

19th February 2022, 04:25 PM	#1
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Indonesian, English or the other way around? I have had this Indonesian knife for a long time and often wondered about the origin of the hilt. Found this Bowie on the net and I think the question of origin is answered. What do you think? Copied or " borrowed " Roy Attached Images

19th February 2022, 06:25 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,801	Hello Roy, The knife itself is a peurawot from Aceh I guess, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=aceh. English bread handles sometimes seen on knives from mainland SEA, it's the first time I saw an English handle with an Indonesian blade. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

19th February 2022, 04:31 PM	#2
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	The title should say "way" not " war"

19th February 2022, 05:44 PM	#3
Mel H Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: North East England. Posts: 107	I would tend to go for the Borrowed. The Sheffield 'Cutlery' Rococo, pistol handled Bowies were popular in the US during the 19th C. Some were silver and some plated. Similar handles are seen on antique meat carving cutlery sets.

19th February 2022, 09:22 PM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Detlef & Mel, I agree that the hilt is most certainly borrowed. The British had a strong presence, especially on Sumatra, and kept trading even after the Dutch took over again (but still had not taken over all of Sumatra until into the 20th century). However, this is not from greater Aceh and, thus, not a peurawot. Typical peurawot have a classic blade shape while there are also some examples exhibiting deviating blade shapes like the one shown by Detlef. This scabbard is different despite some similarities in carving at the mouth. Details are not Aceh style though. This blade is a rawit. If this ensemble got not assembled by one of the Batak groups, the blade might as well had travelled to one of the coastal communities and trading ports and possibly got adapted locally. Just brainstorming though. Closeups of the carving might help to place it (please include both sides and a top view, Roy). Regards, Kai

20th February 2022, 01:25 AM	#6
Mel H Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: North East England. Posts: 107	Is it possible that the style of the carving on the scabbard is influenced by the swirling decoration on the pommel? There does seem to be some resemblance. As Kai remarks, British goods were everywhere in the 19th C.