Pair of knives

[blue lander]

The seller thinks they're Turkish but that doesn't seem right. They look more South East Asian to me, perhaps Thailand? Philippines?

[VANDOO]

JUST A GUESS BUT THEY STRIKE ME AS BEING FROM SOMEWHERE AROUND CHINA AND RUSSIA WITH THE DESIGN OF THE KNIFE BEING CLOSER TO THE CHINESE FORM. THE INFLUENCE OF CHINA IS VERY WIDE IN THE REGION.

[blue lander]

Thanks. I would have never considered a Chinese origin. I thought the blades were vaguely e-nep looking.

[Andrew]

These are Thai. Recently made. Similar knives (of typically better quality) are made in Aranyik.

[carlos]

I had one like this, a present from a friend that visited Thailand
carlos

[ausjulius]

chinese mong (h'mong... why hwy is there a h,, nobody probnounces this "h" in any languages and they are called mong... if your french please tell me why!! )

form thailand have mong people form china they make these knives with the multiple fullers, mong in lao for example dont..

[blue lander]

Oh yeah, it does look like a hmong friendship knife. I've never seen them in a pair like this or in a leather scabbard

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Andrew

These are Thai. Recently made. Similar knives (of typically better quality) are made in Aranyik.

hi actually they dont make any mong or meo knive sin aranyik maybe some wholesalers in the village may have some eneps form north thailand or something some time. but they never stock any non thai stuff.

you can maybe find stuff like these on the thai knife fourms or gun forums some time...

about the chinese influence.. yes its 100% chinese influence.. and in fact chinese them selves historically used such a blade shape, considering meo and mong and many other asian tribal people came from central east china and spread out in the last 1000nd years or so im sure there was a lot of exchanges in knife making..
these chinese influenced blades show up with mong and meo from china and you can find them with very long blades ive seem some in chinese forums with blades more like chinses sabres!...
the fact that older immigrant groups in this area of asia of mong and meo dont really make their blades with fulling or with pin inlay like these, so i can speculate that either it is a style that some specific tribes of meo made or its just that they recently .. in the last 50 years adopted some chinese styles.. or can be another reason.. maybe mong and meo made these styles in their homelands in wht is now china and the others changed their styles when they arrived in new lands and these new arrivals kept the blade decorating styles..

[blue lander]

The rivets used in the sheath don't look like they could be more than ~50 years old so they must be pretty modern . Post WW2 at the very least.

The seller is in France if that helps narrow down the time frame. Perhaps its from the era of their colonial involvement over there.

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by blue lander

The rivets used in the sheath don't look like they could be more than ~50 years old so they must be pretty modern . Post WW2 at the very least.

The seller is in France if that helps narrow down the time frame. Perhaps its from the era of their colonial involvement over there.

no the sheath.
the knvies we are discussing...

the sheaths like this are a product of vietnam war or after that time.. nothing about anything traditional.. and they dont carry the knives like this either they will use a wooden sheath.. sheath and the knife can be made yesterday, its irrelevant it is the blade marking and construction that is to contemplate..

[blue lander]

Do you believe the knives are older than the sheath?

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by ausjulius

hi actually they dont make any mong or meo knive sin aranyik maybe some wholesalers in the village may have some eneps form north thailand or something some time. but they never stock any non thai stuff.

you can maybe find stuff like these on the thai knife fourms or gun forums some time...

about the chinese influence.. yes its 100% chinese influence.. and in fact chinese them selves historically used such a blade shape, considering meo and mong and many other asian tribal people came from central east china and spread out in the last 1000nd years or so im sure there was a lot of exchanges in knife making..
these chinese influenced blades show up with mong and meo from china and you can find them with very long blades ive seem some in chinese forums with blades more like chinses sabres!...
the fact that older immigrant groups in this area of asia of mong and meo dont really make their blades with fulling or with pin inlay like these, so i can speculate that either it is a style that some specific tribes of meo made or its just that they recently .. in the last 50 years adopted some chinese styles.. or can be another reason.. maybe mong and meo made these styles in their homelands in wht is now china and the others changed their styles when they arrived in new lands and these new arrivals kept the blade decorating styles..

Great information, thanks!

[blue lander]

What about these two? I got them awhile back with a couple other items and sort of wrote them off as souvenirs. The top one looks somewhat similar to the Hmong knife. It's actually quite sturdy with a fairly thick blade with distal taper. It's as sharp as your average pocket knife and seems very usable. The bottom one's blade is very crude and barely sharpened. I have no idea what it's supposed to be.

[Andrew]

I've never seen one like the bottom example.

The top one is an example of knives still being produced in Myanmar/Burma (and, likely, Thailand). About 10 years ago, I was introduced to a gentleman who had a government-approved trip scheduled to Myanmar, where he was spending time with Karen tribes. I requested he bring me back something sharp and pointy if he came across anything inexpensive. He sent me this:

Dha-hmyaung. Myanmar (Burma). Early 21st Century. Brass and rattan fittings. Newly manufactured by Karen Tribesmen.

Overall length: 30 cm
Blade length: 20 cm
Handle length: 10 cm
Scabbard length: 22 cm

[Congoblades]

I have a simular one. Does not look very old.

[blue lander]

How large is that one? Mine's only 20mm OAL, much smaller than the one Andrew posted.

[Congoblades]

The knife 30 cm, total lenght is 33 cm.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by blue lander

How large is that one? Mine's only 20mm OAL, much smaller than the one Andrew posted.

20 mm ?, you are sure?

[blue lander]

Whoops, you're right. 20 cm. Still smaller than either other example.

[blue lander]

They just arrived today. First impression: Souvenir knives. They're tiny and the edges aren't sharpened. I was about to chuck them in the "junk" bin but the seller covered the other side of the blade with stickers for some reason and I wanted to remove them. I scraped off what I could and used FeCL to burn off the rest of the residue.

To my surprise, it appears that the larger one has a hardened edge! So I guess it is a real knife.

Edit: Small one appears to be hardened as well. I can't imagine what such a small knife would be useful for.

[Nathaniel]

Originally Posted by blue lander

They just arrived today. First impression: Souvenir knives. They're tiny and the edges aren't sharpened. I was about to chuck them in the "junk" bin but the seller covered the other side of the blade with stickers for some reason and I wanted to remove them. I scraped off what I could and used FeCL to burn off the rest of the residue.

To my surprise, it appears that the larger one has a hardened edge! So I guess it is a real knife.

Edit: Small one appears to be hardened as well. I can't imagine what such a small knife would be useful for.

Classic Hmong style blade and handle. Interesting I've never seen a shealth like that were they are in a pair. In South East Asia, the Hmong live in China, Vietnam, Laos and Thailand. The largest Hmong population outside of Asia is in the USA due to Hmong fighting along side US soldiers in the Vietnam War. In he USA, I've seen Hmong knives for sale at markets during large Hmong gatherings during Memorial day, 4th of July and Labor Day.

[Nathaniel]

Originally Posted by blue lander

What about these two? I got them awhile back with a couple other items and sort of wrote them off as souvenirs. The top one looks somewhat similar to the Hmong knife. It's actually quite sturdy with a fairly thick blade with distal taper. It's as sharp as your average pocket knife and seems very usable. The bottom one's blade is very crude and barely sharpened. I have no idea what it's supposed to be.

I have one similar to the first one from the Shan State of Myanmar . I do not know the knife style is specific to a certain group. This one pictured is tourist/ trinket/ kid toys

[Nathaniel]

Originally Posted by ausjulius

chinese mong (h'mong... why hwy is there a h,, nobody probnounces this "h" in any languages and they are called mong... if your french please tell me why!! )

form thailand have mong people form china they make these knives with the multiple fullers, mong in lao for example dont..

I agree...ausjulius...you do see the blades out of Yunnan with multi- fullers like this...and not just Hmong but other groups...must be a regional influence.

[Nathaniel]

Originally Posted by Andrew

I've never seen one like the bottom example.

The top one is an example of knives still being produced in Myanmar/Burma (and, likely, Thailand). About 10 years ago, I was introduced to a gentleman who had a government-approved trip scheduled to Myanmar, where he was spending time with Karen tribes. I requested he bring me back something sharp and pointy if he came across anything inexpensive. He sent me this:

Dha-hmyaung. Myanmar (Burma). Early 21st Century. Brass and rattan fittings. Newly manufactured by Karen Tribesmen.

Overall length: 30 cm
Blade length: 20 cm
Handle length: 10 cm
Scabbard length: 22 cm

Just curious, Andrew...when this gentleman went to Myanmar and stayed with the Karen...do you know what state or area he was in?

[Nathaniel]

Originally Posted by blue lander

Oh yeah, it does look like a hmong friendship knife. I've never seen them in a pair like this or in a leather scabbard

Interesting Blue Lander, I've never heard them called a Hmong Friendship knife....I should ask some of my Hmong friends about this though they may not know much about the history of a common tool like this...probably have to ask their grandparents....

I remember one Hmong friend in college who was having bad dreams though....according to Hmong traditional beliefs her grandmother gave her a hmong knife to put under her pillow for protection from the bad dreams...I don't remember hearing if it worked, but we teased her saying no one should ever try to wake her up at night for the possibility of getting stabbed!

[blue lander]

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

Classic Hmong style blade and handle. Interesting I've never seen a shealth like that were they are in a pair. In South East Asia, the Hmong live in China, Vietnam, Laos and Thailand. The largest Hmong population outside of Asia is in the USA due to Hmong fighting along side US soldiers in the Vietnam War. In he USA, I've seen Hmong knives for sale at markets during large Hmong gatherings during Memorial day, 4th of July and Labor Day.

Thanks for the info. Have you ever seen Hmong knives this small? The other one's I've seen have been much larger. I'm still trying to determine if these were souvenirs or intended for use.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

Just curious, Andrew...when this gentleman went to Myanmar and stayed with the Karen...do you know what state or area he was in?

It's been about 10 years, Nathaniel. I'll see if my email archives go back that far.

[Nathaniel]

Originally Posted by Andrew

It's been about 10 years, Nathaniel. I'll see if my email archives go back that far.

Oh, yeah, you did mention that...10 years...that is quite a ways back...well, when you have time and only if it takes less than 2 minutes...otherwise not really all that important. Great story to hear though of how you came upon it and which group the guy was visiting. Thanks Andrew!

[Nathaniel]

Originally Posted by blue lander

Thanks for the info. Have you ever seen Hmong knives this small? The other one's I've seen have been much larger. I'm still trying to determine if these were souvenirs or intended for use.

I would guess more along the novelty type, though you can used knives of all different sizes for specific tasks.

Here is what the more common utility type look like...they are both actually Hmong style blades. When I posted this tread initially I titled it Karen...but that is not quite correct...we visited a more temporary village which had a number of sellers from different tribal groups just north of Chiang Rai, Thailand...this type would be recognized as Meed Hmong (Hmong style knife)

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5163