A Fine and Very Rare South German Landsknecht Saber, ca. 1540

Matchlock · 10th February 2009, 08:28 PM

The original cord binding with strands of fine copper wire, one side of the blade engraved with magical lozenge line and dot patterns and struck with a mark in brass tausia, an orb and cross (characteristic of South Germany, Austria and The Tyrol).

Overall length 106,5 cm.

Bavarian private collection (not mine

).

Michael

kisak · 10th February 2009, 11:57 PM

Quite interesting to see such a wrap done with normal cord, instead of metal wire.

Gonzalo G · 11th February 2009, 12:55 AM

Not a very uncommon wrapping in medieval swords, usually combined with a cover of leather, I think. Indeed, a very interesting weapon, Matchlock, thank you for posting it.
Regards

Gonzalo

Matchlock · 12th February 2009, 07:12 PM

Of course you are right, Gonzalo, in expecting the cord binding typically to be covered by thin leather. According to my experience, plain cord bindings are quite common to 'military' swords of the first half of the 16th century.

Michael

Gonzalo G · 13th February 2009, 04:47 AM

Thank you, Michael. I was not sure in which period those bindings without leather were used, though I was sure I have seen them in some antique weapons. European edged weapons from this period are not my "strong" area (maybe I don´t have any strong area, hahahaha).
My best regards

Gonzalo

Jim McDougall · 13th February 2009, 05:18 AM

.Very nice Michael!! Thank you for posting this great katzbalger.
You know that that extremely unusual marking pattern is driving me nuts! so another sleepless night......
Cannot find anything in Wagner, Wallace or otherwise that refers to any such patterning on sword blades, though the cross and orb inlay is pretty much regular in these regions as noted in that period.

Is that pattern actually lozenge? it seems more like intersecting triangles.

The lozenge is of diamond (like the suit of cards) shape, and Wagner does make a note on p.73 in the grouping of symbols saying it represents good luck, and a rather bizarre medical reference to human anatomy!
Discounting any possibility of that association to the pattern, I think of the elaborate costume of the Landsknechts, not only in garish color combinations, but in some cases unusual geometric patterns.

This seems to have a kind of 'harlequin' type pattern, and while this may relate to this effect on the apparantly disturbing effect intended with the Landsknechts garish costumes, I am unable to discover reference to magic symbolism. It is clearly a geometric design, and that is a device often used in magic esoterica, but no luck yet finding it.
Can you offer any clues?

All the best,

Jim

Matchlock · 13th February 2009, 07:04 PM

Hi Jim,

Of course you are right about the style of blade decoration and your reference to Landsknechts garish costumes, my friend! I just could not seem to find the right expression and chose the wrong word. As to the possible magic meaning behind the decoration, my friend who is the owner of the sabre and has excellent erpertise in early edged weapons told me so. I must admit that I never reflected it.

Several stylistic elements, like the serpent pattern and the dotted geometrical lines, can be found on contemporary iron work as well as on harquebus barrels. E.g., for stylistc comparison I attach a few details of similar patterns on barrels of matchlock harquebuses, hoping that that will convey some addidtional impression.

In fact, this saber should not actually be referred to as a Katzbalger. There is seemingly no distinguishing English word for this kind of saber other than Landsknecht sword, which is commonly used to describe a Katzbalger. A Katzbalger, however, is defined by the characteristic pretzel shaped quillons. Pics of actual Katzbalgers attached.

All the best,
Michael

Matchlock · 13th February 2009, 07:05 PM

More Katzbalgers.

broadaxe · 13th February 2009, 08:06 PM

Highly interesting saber, a longer brother of the German Dussak / Sinclair saber.
I've seen such decorations usualy on axe heads from the Germanic region, occasionaly on different bladed tools, even on anvils (rare).

Matchlock · 13th February 2009, 09:49 PM

That's perfectly right, broadaxe,

These are traditional decorative patterns common to plain iron work from the 16th to the 19th century.

Michael

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2009, 12:59 AM

Hi Michael,
It seems that semantics and transliteration is so often confounding in weapons study, much as in probably any focused study in detail. With this vary interesting geometric pattern, I wanted to be sure I wasn't misunderstanding the term for lozenge. As I noted with the bizarre entry for diamond shape that came up in Wagner, one can never be sure exactly what parlance is intended.

Thank you for the note on the katzbalgar term, and that is right that the traditional form was a simple figure eight of writhen iron for the guard. It does seem that these began developing more complex guards gradually with the simple knucklebow, as seen on the examples you kindly added. I must say the incredible photos you continually add are wonderfully fantastic, and its like having the most complete arms library right here in our threads.

I'm not sure whether these swords with more complex basket type hilts would still be termed katzbalgars, though they were still used by Landsknechts in the same capacity in close quarters fighting...but it seems there are so many forms that seem to have developed outside thier defined classification.

Ironically, it seems the 'landsknecht' term itself is often misconstrued, and was coined in about 1480 by Peter von Haganbach to refer to lowland soldiers of the Holy Roman Empire as opposed to the mercenaries of Switzerland. In time, it seems the term became more associated with the Swiss mercenary group in many cases.

The thing they seem to have had in common is the outlandish and garish costume, with loud colors, slashed and patched garments, parti colored hose and in degree, the stripes and harlequin patterns. Interestingly this was another form of psychological warfare as such bizarre appearance must have been greatly disconcerting, much as the same effect used by so many other cultures' warriors.

While I have yet to find distinct magical association with this most unusual pattern of 'connect the dots' on this blade, it is well known that geometrics are an age old device for such esoterica as well as even religious and talismanic symbolism. Without going into the complexities, it is known that there are key associations between art, music, mathematics and architecture. The application of numerics in talismanic and religious symbolism on sword blades can be seen in many examples, but this distinct motif reflecting geometric design with such deliberate intent is what is most unusual.
As you have noted, these styled geometric motifs and the wavy lines etc. are of course seen on firearms, and on many weapon forms as well.

We know that Landsknechts believed in certain superstitions, and whether any was intended in the costume, it seems that the pikes often had a foxes brush or animal tail attached to the top for protection in battle.

As always, more research to be done

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 20th February 2009, 10:55 PM

Note: The previous post contained a link to a pending auction, so had to be deleted. The question in the post by Broadaxe was quite pertinant, and I will paraphrase as I could not delete only the link to the auction.

His comment was that 'katzbalger's were thought to only carry straight blades.
This is true, however as we have discussed, these sabre type weapons though similar, are only 'of the type' and were indeed carried by Landsknechts as variations of the original form. Terminology is often maddening when applied too arbitrarily with weapons and in many cases terms are widely and loosely used in descriptions.

We know that 'katzbalgers' were often reserviced and remounted with other blades, and it seems an example even with one of the early 'Ulfberht' type blades is known, remounted in its working life.

My apologies for the error in earlier closure of this thread, and I hope we can continue the discussion on the varying aspects of these interesting swords.

All best regards,
Jim

Andrew · 22nd February 2009, 06:14 PM

I have linked a "sticky" thread to the Rules found heretofore in the main forum.

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2009, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

I have linked a "sticky" thread to the Rules found heretofore in the main forum.

Thank you so much Andrew!

10th February 2009, 08:28 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Fine and Very Rare South German Landsknecht Saber, ca. 1540 The original cord binding with strands of fine copper wire, one side of the blade engraved with magical lozenge line and dot patterns and struck with a mark in brass tausia, an orb and cross (characteristic of South Germany, Austria and The Tyrol). Overall length 106,5 cm. Bavarian private collection (not mine). Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 10th February 2009 at 10:12 PM.

13th February 2009, 07:04 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Jim, Of course you are right about the style of blade decoration and your reference to Landsknechts garish costumes, my friend! I just could not seem to find the right expression and chose the wrong word. As to the possible magic meaning behind the decoration, my friend who is the owner of the sabre and has excellent erpertise in early edged weapons told me so. I must admit that I never reflected it. Several stylistic elements, like the serpent pattern and the dotted geometrical lines, can be found on contemporary iron work as well as on harquebus barrels. E.g., for stylistc comparison I attach a few details of similar patterns on barrels of matchlock harquebuses, hoping that that will convey some addidtional impression. In fact, this saber should not actually be referred to as a Katzbalger. There is seemingly no distinguishing English word for this kind of saber other than Landsknecht sword, which is commonly used to describe a Katzbalger. A Katzbalger, however, is defined by the characteristic pretzel shaped quillons. Pics of actual Katzbalgers attached. All the best, Michael Attached Images

13th February 2009, 07:05 PM	#8
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More Katzbalgers. Attached Images

14th February 2009, 12:59 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Hi Michael, It seems that semantics and transliteration is so often confounding in weapons study, much as in probably any focused study in detail. With this vary interesting geometric pattern, I wanted to be sure I wasn't misunderstanding the term for lozenge. As I noted with the bizarre entry for diamond shape that came up in Wagner, one can never be sure exactly what parlance is intended. Thank you for the note on the katzbalgar term, and that is right that the traditional form was a simple figure eight of writhen iron for the guard. It does seem that these began developing more complex guards gradually with the simple knucklebow, as seen on the examples you kindly added. I must say the incredible photos you continually add are wonderfully fantastic, and its like having the most complete arms library right here in our threads. I'm not sure whether these swords with more complex basket type hilts would still be termed katzbalgars, though they were still used by Landsknechts in the same capacity in close quarters fighting...but it seems there are so many forms that seem to have developed outside thier defined classification. Ironically, it seems the 'landsknecht' term itself is often misconstrued, and was coined in about 1480 by Peter von Haganbach to refer to lowland soldiers of the Holy Roman Empire as opposed to the mercenaries of Switzerland. In time, it seems the term became more associated with the Swiss mercenary group in many cases. The thing they seem to have had in common is the outlandish and garish costume, with loud colors, slashed and patched garments, parti colored hose and in degree, the stripes and harlequin patterns. Interestingly this was another form of psychological warfare as such bizarre appearance must have been greatly disconcerting, much as the same effect used by so many other cultures' warriors. While I have yet to find distinct magical association with this most unusual pattern of 'connect the dots' on this blade, it is well known that geometrics are an age old device for such esoterica as well as even religious and talismanic symbolism. Without going into the complexities, it is known that there are key associations between art, music, mathematics and architecture. The application of numerics in talismanic and religious symbolism on sword blades can be seen in many examples, but this distinct motif reflecting geometric design with such deliberate intent is what is most unusual. As you have noted, these styled geometric motifs and the wavy lines etc. are of course seen on firearms, and on many weapon forms as well. We know that Landsknechts believed in certain superstitions, and whether any was intended in the costume, it seems that the pikes often had a foxes brush or animal tail attached to the top for protection in battle. As always, more research to be done All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 14th February 2009 at 03:40 AM.

10th February 2009, 11:57 PM	#2
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	Quite interesting to see such a wrap done with normal cord, instead of metal wire.

11th February 2009, 12:55 AM	#3
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Not a very uncommon wrapping in medieval swords, usually combined with a cover of leather, I think. Indeed, a very interesting weapon, Matchlock, thank you for posting it. Regards Gonzalo

12th February 2009, 07:12 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Of course you are right, Gonzalo, in expecting the cord binding typically to be covered by thin leather. According to my experience, plain cord bindings are quite common to 'military' swords of the first half of the 16th century. Michael

13th February 2009, 04:47 AM	#5
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Thank you, Michael. I was not sure in which period those bindings without leather were used, though I was sure I have seen them in some antique weapons. European edged weapons from this period are not my "strong" area (maybe I don´t have any strong area, hahahaha). My best regards Gonzalo

13th February 2009, 05:18 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	.Very nice Michael!! Thank you for posting this great katzbalger. You know that that extremely unusual marking pattern is driving me nuts! so another sleepless night...... Cannot find anything in Wagner, Wallace or otherwise that refers to any such patterning on sword blades, though the cross and orb inlay is pretty much regular in these regions as noted in that period. Is that pattern actually lozenge? it seems more like intersecting triangles. The lozenge is of diamond (like the suit of cards) shape, and Wagner does make a note on p.73 in the grouping of symbols saying it represents good luck, and a rather bizarre medical reference to human anatomy! Discounting any possibility of that association to the pattern, I think of the elaborate costume of the Landsknechts, not only in garish color combinations, but in some cases unusual geometric patterns. This seems to have a kind of 'harlequin' type pattern, and while this may relate to this effect on the apparantly disturbing effect intended with the Landsknechts garish costumes, I am unable to discover reference to magic symbolism. It is clearly a geometric design, and that is a device often used in magic esoterica, but no luck yet finding it. Can you offer any clues? All the best, Jim

13th February 2009, 08:06 PM	#9
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Highly interesting saber, a longer brother of the German Dussak / Sinclair saber. I've seen such decorations usualy on axe heads from the Germanic region, occasionaly on different bladed tools, even on anvils (rare).

13th February 2009, 09:49 PM	#10
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	That's perfectly right, broadaxe, These are traditional decorative patterns common to plain iron work from the 16th to the 19th century. Michael

20th February 2009, 10:55 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Note: The previous post contained a link to a pending auction, so had to be deleted. The question in the post by Broadaxe was quite pertinant, and I will paraphrase as I could not delete only the link to the auction. His comment was that 'katzbalger's were thought to only carry straight blades. This is true, however as we have discussed, these sabre type weapons though similar, are only 'of the type' and were indeed carried by Landsknechts as variations of the original form. Terminology is often maddening when applied too arbitrarily with weapons and in many cases terms are widely and loosely used in descriptions. We know that 'katzbalgers' were often reserviced and remounted with other blades, and it seems an example even with one of the early 'Ulfberht' type blades is known, remounted in its working life. My apologies for the error in earlier closure of this thread, and I hope we can continue the discussion on the varying aspects of these interesting swords. All best regards, Jim

22nd February 2009, 06:14 PM	#13
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I have linked a "sticky" thread to the Rules found heretofore in the main forum.