Strange Sudanese Blade

Lew · 15th May 2008, 04:42 AM

I picked this up today. Seems to be a Beja tribe blade?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWN:IT&ih=016

Lew

Valjhun · 15th May 2008, 10:13 AM

That is a Hadendoa blade. It should have an X hilt.

Bill M · 15th May 2008, 12:30 PM

Like this?

Bill M · 15th May 2008, 12:33 PM

Lew's blade -- for later reference

Lew · 15th May 2008, 04:28 PM

Thanks All

I knew that the blade was from a X hilt dagger what is interesting is this is the first time I saw this style of blade decorated with a crocodile motif

. Until now I have only seen this design on straight bladed daggers.

Lew

Tim Simmons · 15th May 2008, 06:00 PM

Lew, it cannot be too hard to find an "x" hilt for such an interesting blade

. Beautiful engraving.

VANDOO · 15th May 2008, 06:35 PM

PERHAPS IT IS A VARIATION FROM A DIFFERENT GROUP IN THE HADENDOA TRIBAL GROUP.? THE ANGLE OF THE BEND IS A LOT SHARPER THAN I HAVE SEEN ON ANY OTHER EXAMPLE (NOTE THAT IT FORMS AN ACTUAL POINT) AND AS POINTED OUT I HAVE NEVER SEEN A BLADE WITH ENGRAVED DESIGNS. THEY ARE USUALLY PLAIN ON THE OLD AND THE NEW ONES AND I HAVE SEEN MANY OF THEM.
THE BLADE DOES APPEAR TO HAVE SOME AGE SO I WOULD GUESS IT IS NOT A MODERN MADE ONE , MADE TO APPEAL MORE TO TOURISTS, SO THAT WOULD NOT ACCOUNT FOR NEVER HAVING SEEN SUCH AN EXAMPLE BEFORE.
NICE CATCH AT A VERY GOOD PRICE.

Jim McDougall · 15th May 2008, 07:28 PM

Interesting addition of the kaskara type fullering inscribed in the blade.

Jim McDougall · 24th May 2008, 07:38 PM

OK then, how about this. These angled or hooked tip blades do apparantly seem to be associated with the Hadendoa or Beja (Spring,p.104).However, in an interesting discussion I had with a Beja tribesman from Eritrea whom I had become well acquainted, he emphatically told me the 'hooked' type blade was not Hadendoa or Beja....but actually from the Afar tribes in Danakil.

Naturally there was great diffusion of weapons in these areas, but he seemed very involved with the traditions and weaponry there, in fact most of his family was still in Eritrea. He loaned me a VHS recorded of tribal dances there with various weapons as I had asked about use of the kaskara there.

As the native singing and tribal chants bellowed forth from my den upstairs my wife became concerned after about a half hour of the ceremony I began to join in (being careful to keep my kaskara away from the ceiling fan! not to repeat the dreaded tulwar and drambuie fan incident!)
Much of her concern may have evolved from the previous week's Jimi Hendrix 'experience'!! as "Purple Haze" etc. blasted from the den and the incense wafted under the door......maybe it was the headband that really freaked her out

Anyway, back to East Africa. Lew's blade seems of course to reflect the blade type of Afar, and reflects the influence of kaskara fullering seen in the overall blade motif.

I have always thought it would be interesting to discover more on the X shape of the hilt. I guess another time maybe.

Lew · 24th May 2008, 08:30 PM

Jim

I wish the Sudan was more friendly towards Westerners these days would love to go there and do some research. Maybe there is a museum in Khartoum that we can contact the curator there might have some answers for us ?

http://sudan.usembassy.gov/places_to_visit.html

Lew

Jim McDougall · 24th May 2008, 10:17 PM

Hi Lew,
Its really good to hear from you. I completely agree, but with todays ever worsening geopolitical nightmare not too likely. I had a good friend who owns a very comprehensive collection of Sudanese material as he was an archaeologist who worked on sites there. Even several years ago while in Khartoum receiving a Doctorate at the University, he experienced many instances of violence there. Questions I had sent with him there were pretty much left without result. It seems that political unrest far overshadows historical pursuits.

I felt fortunate that in my working at an international airport, I often became acquainted with people from many countries. There were many from Africa working there, and they came from many countries and tribes. Speaking with them and so many people from many other countries was one of the truly fascinating aspects of my job. They always became excited when I would ask questions, and it was gratifying to see them light up with pride to see such interest in thier cultures.

It truly would be great to visit these places!!!

Thanks again Lew,
All the best,
Jim

15th May 2008, 04:42 AM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Strange Sudanese Blade I picked this up today. Seems to be a Beja tribe blade? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWN:IT&ih=016 Lew

15th May 2008, 12:30 PM	#3
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Like this? Attached Images

15th May 2008, 12:33 PM	#4
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Lew's blade -- for later reference Attached Images

15th May 2008, 10:13 AM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	That is a Hadendoa blade. It should have an X hilt.

15th May 2008, 04:28 PM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Thanks All I knew that the blade was from a X hilt dagger what is interesting is this is the first time I saw this style of blade decorated with a crocodile motif . Until now I have only seen this design on straight bladed daggers. Lew

15th May 2008, 06:00 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Lew, it cannot be too hard to find an "x" hilt for such an interesting blade . Beautiful engraving.

15th May 2008, 06:35 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	PERHAPS IT IS A VARIATION FROM A DIFFERENT GROUP IN THE HADENDOA TRIBAL GROUP.? THE ANGLE OF THE BEND IS A LOT SHARPER THAN I HAVE SEEN ON ANY OTHER EXAMPLE (NOTE THAT IT FORMS AN ACTUAL POINT) AND AS POINTED OUT I HAVE NEVER SEEN A BLADE WITH ENGRAVED DESIGNS. THEY ARE USUALLY PLAIN ON THE OLD AND THE NEW ONES AND I HAVE SEEN MANY OF THEM. THE BLADE DOES APPEAR TO HAVE SOME AGE SO I WOULD GUESS IT IS NOT A MODERN MADE ONE , MADE TO APPEAL MORE TO TOURISTS, SO THAT WOULD NOT ACCOUNT FOR NEVER HAVING SEEN SUCH AN EXAMPLE BEFORE. NICE CATCH AT A VERY GOOD PRICE.

15th May 2008, 07:28 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Interesting addition of the kaskara type fullering inscribed in the blade.

24th May 2008, 07:38 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	OK then, how about this. These angled or hooked tip blades do apparantly seem to be associated with the Hadendoa or Beja (Spring,p.104).However, in an interesting discussion I had with a Beja tribesman from Eritrea whom I had become well acquainted, he emphatically told me the 'hooked' type blade was not Hadendoa or Beja....but actually from the Afar tribes in Danakil. Naturally there was great diffusion of weapons in these areas, but he seemed very involved with the traditions and weaponry there, in fact most of his family was still in Eritrea. He loaned me a VHS recorded of tribal dances there with various weapons as I had asked about use of the kaskara there. As the native singing and tribal chants bellowed forth from my den upstairs my wife became concerned after about a half hour of the ceremony I began to join in (being careful to keep my kaskara away from the ceiling fan! not to repeat the dreaded tulwar and drambuie fan incident!) Much of her concern may have evolved from the previous week's Jimi Hendrix 'experience'!! as "Purple Haze" etc. blasted from the den and the incense wafted under the door......maybe it was the headband that really freaked her out Anyway, back to East Africa. Lew's blade seems of course to reflect the blade type of Afar, and reflects the influence of kaskara fullering seen in the overall blade motif. I have always thought it would be interesting to discover more on the X shape of the hilt. I guess another time maybe.

24th May 2008, 08:30 PM	#10
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Jim I wish the Sudan was more friendly towards Westerners these days would love to go there and do some research. Maybe there is a museum in Khartoum that we can contact the curator there might have some answers for us ? http://sudan.usembassy.gov/places_to_visit.html Lew

24th May 2008, 10:17 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Hi Lew, Its really good to hear from you. I completely agree, but with todays ever worsening geopolitical nightmare not too likely. I had a good friend who owns a very comprehensive collection of Sudanese material as he was an archaeologist who worked on sites there. Even several years ago while in Khartoum receiving a Doctorate at the University, he experienced many instances of violence there. Questions I had sent with him there were pretty much left without result. It seems that political unrest far overshadows historical pursuits. I felt fortunate that in my working at an international airport, I often became acquainted with people from many countries. There were many from Africa working there, and they came from many countries and tribes. Speaking with them and so many people from many other countries was one of the truly fascinating aspects of my job. They always became excited when I would ask questions, and it was gratifying to see them light up with pride to see such interest in thier cultures. It truly would be great to visit these places!!! Thanks again Lew, All the best, Jim