Tulwar fencing techniques.

Atlantia · 23rd June 2008, 11:52 AM

As a former fencing enthusiast (V amateur)
I have always wondered what the technique is for fencing with a Tulwar. I realise the average western hand is wider making them even more difficult to use, but the disk pommel would still be somewhat limiting for movement even to a small hand.
Does anyone know of a resource or site that covers the subject?

kronckew · 23rd June 2008, 01:22 PM

try googling 'gatka'

HERE IS A LINK to one, see also the related videos

here's another LINKY , shows man in a gatka tulwar routine, i think he must be double jointed to get a tulwar to move like that.

also see This Thread , specificly post 4's videos of the sikh nihungs, definitley would NOT mess with any of them no way no how.

katana · 23rd June 2008, 02:25 PM

Other similar threads....

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=gatka

and this...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=gatka

Regards David

G. McCormack · 23rd June 2008, 07:01 PM

While yes, the topic has been discussed a bit here before, my 2 cents:

Gatka is to practical weapons techniques as empty hand wushu is to practical wing chun or good JKD. Gatka is a stylized dance. Like capoeira. All have their place and I have no disrespect for any of them. But Gatka is what it is.

In regards to actual martial use of a tulwar, size of your hand isn't a big factor. I have small hands and still most of the tulwars I've owned have been super tight, locking my hand into place. Wrist movement is virtually impossible.
But thats the point with this weapon. You almost can't track a tulwar poorly through strikes. The lack of wrist mobility means you physically can't make little popping cuts like we use in sport sabre fencing. Slashes are long, but tight in against the body, and expose the target to a lot of blade edge. Also, the lack of wrist mobility means you have to commit to all your actions. Which is great, if you have good form. You can't ineffectually flick the wrist to try to parry a downward diagonal strike coming to the neck. The entire arm (and body) must move to create a shielding action, where the blade will slide off and away; this also puts you into position to flow right into a return strike.

In filipino martial arts practice, we do the things the tulwar makes you do, but I prefer to use less restrictive, less curved blades.

For the guy who gets handed a munitions grade tulwar in 19th century India, I think the learning curve is pretty quick. Just try to make a cut with a tulwar while extending the wrist and you'll avoid that again.

Atlantia · 23rd June 2008, 08:36 PM

Thanks everyone.

Although as G.McCormack points out these clips are essentially stylised dance forms, it is possible to see how the Tulwar is weilded. The video clips are great! I love the one from the Chakram thread! See the assembled crowd falling back everytime the performers get close with the whirling blades.

The clear difference in weilding these things is the wrist movements. A western Sabre or straight sword is used with a lot of 'up down' wrist movement. Straight 'slashes' or push cuts/lunges/stabs, occasional pull cuts, but certainly rapier or straigh forms are based on keep distance if possible.

The Tulwar handle somewhat restricts movement (I have broad hands so find Tulwars almost impossible to hold tight) Whilst there is still some 'up down' movement, check out just how much side to side movement there is in the stylised forms in the clips.

G.McC Thanks I see what you mean. Combat with these would be awfully close. Lots of pull cuts.
I imagine some 'point work' would be used, but I take it that the vast bulk or moves are based on these wide pull slashes across the opponents body?

Its such a complete contrast to the western forms, the graceful economy of movement (especially with the straight blade) that evolved here is gone, as is the lack of distance, it must have been hellishly bloody!

Bollywood should use some of its ga-zillions of rupees to film a (non musical) hack and slash epic! Give the huge wealth of Inidan martial history a little 'crouching tiger' treatment.

Tim Simmons · 23rd June 2008, 08:58 PM

I am always a little cautious about fencing and combat. Is it one on one like a duel which is still not fencing as your life is at stake or just a free for all where one just attacks and blocks in a melee and hopefully survives. In combat reality "hopefully something I will never have to experience" I imagine it is a cross between a shambles and luck backed up by practise or skill. Either way its all quite unpleasant.

katana · 23rd June 2008, 10:00 PM

I personally feel that Gatka is for the 'martial' use of the Tulwar, in that, it not only demonstates the sword play but increases coordination, stamina and balance.
I do not agree that it is just dance movements, a number of Martial arts had to go 'undercover' because of restrictions imposed by the ruling elite (including colonial rule) Capoeira was originally disguised as a dance as it was outlawed, but do not be fooled by the 'strange' dance like movements which are used as avoidance and well as attack.

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/capoeira.html

With regards Gatka...I am not saying that swordsman entered the 'melee' like bionic windmills but techniques used would be effective. Especially, I feel, against 'regimented' cut and thrust techniques. I am not saying, either, that Gatka is the only way the Tulwar was used.

Many martial arts involve 'dance'....

Martial Arts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts

"......As mentioned above, some martial arts in various cultures can be performed in dance-like settings for various reasons, such as for evoking ferocity in preparation for battle or showing off skill in a more stylized manner. Many such martial arts incorporate music, especially strong percussive rhythms.
Examples of such war dances include:
• Buza - From Russia.
• Panther Dance - Burmese Bando with swords (dha)
• Gymnopaidiai - ancient Sparta
• European Sword dance or Weapon dance of various kinds
• Haka - New Zealand
• Sabre Dance - depicted in Khachaturian's ballet Gayane
• Maasai moran (warrior age-set) dances
• Aduk-Aduk - Brunei
• Ayyalah - Qatar
• Khattak Dance - Afghanistan
• Brazil's Capoeira, as well as some similar Afro-Caribbean arts
• Dannsa Biodag - Scotland and Scottish sword dances
• Hula & Lua - from the traditions of indigenous Hawaiian
• Combat Hopak - From Ukraine
• Yolah - From Oman/UAE ......"

Regards David

23rd June 2008, 11:52 AM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Tulwar fencing techniques. As a former fencing enthusiast (V amateur) I have always wondered what the technique is for fencing with a Tulwar. I realise the average western hand is wider making them even more difficult to use, but the disk pommel would still be somewhat limiting for movement even to a small hand. Does anyone know of a resource or site that covers the subject?

23rd June 2008, 01:22 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,170	try googling 'gatka' HERE IS A LINK to one, see also the related videos here's another LINKY , shows man in a gatka tulwar routine, i think he must be double jointed to get a tulwar to move like that. also see This Thread , specificly post 4's videos of the sikh nihungs, definitley would NOT mess with any of them no way no how. Last edited by kronckew; 23rd June 2008 at 01:49 PM.

23rd June 2008, 02:25 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Other similar threads.... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=gatka and this... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=gatka Regards David

23rd June 2008, 07:01 PM	#4
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	While yes, the topic has been discussed a bit here before, my 2 cents: Gatka is to practical weapons techniques as empty hand wushu is to practical wing chun or good JKD. Gatka is a stylized dance. Like capoeira. All have their place and I have no disrespect for any of them. But Gatka is what it is. In regards to actual martial use of a tulwar, size of your hand isn't a big factor. I have small hands and still most of the tulwars I've owned have been super tight, locking my hand into place. Wrist movement is virtually impossible. But thats the point with this weapon. You almost can't track a tulwar poorly through strikes. The lack of wrist mobility means you physically can't make little popping cuts like we use in sport sabre fencing. Slashes are long, but tight in against the body, and expose the target to a lot of blade edge. Also, the lack of wrist mobility means you have to commit to all your actions. Which is great, if you have good form. You can't ineffectually flick the wrist to try to parry a downward diagonal strike coming to the neck. The entire arm (and body) must move to create a shielding action, where the blade will slide off and away; this also puts you into position to flow right into a return strike. In filipino martial arts practice, we do the things the tulwar makes you do, but I prefer to use less restrictive, less curved blades. For the guy who gets handed a munitions grade tulwar in 19th century India, I think the learning curve is pretty quick. Just try to make a cut with a tulwar while extending the wrist and you'll avoid that again.

23rd June 2008, 08:36 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Thanks everyone. Although as G.McCormack points out these clips are essentially stylised dance forms, it is possible to see how the Tulwar is weilded. The video clips are great! I love the one from the Chakram thread! See the assembled crowd falling back everytime the performers get close with the whirling blades. The clear difference in weilding these things is the wrist movements. A western Sabre or straight sword is used with a lot of 'up down' wrist movement. Straight 'slashes' or push cuts/lunges/stabs, occasional pull cuts, but certainly rapier or straigh forms are based on keep distance if possible. The Tulwar handle somewhat restricts movement (I have broad hands so find Tulwars almost impossible to hold tight) Whilst there is still some 'up down' movement, check out just how much side to side movement there is in the stylised forms in the clips. G.McC Thanks I see what you mean. Combat with these would be awfully close. Lots of pull cuts. I imagine some 'point work' would be used, but I take it that the vast bulk or moves are based on these wide pull slashes across the opponents body? Its such a complete contrast to the western forms, the graceful economy of movement (especially with the straight blade) that evolved here is gone, as is the lack of distance, it must have been hellishly bloody! Bollywood should use some of its ga-zillions of rupees to film a (non musical) hack and slash epic! Give the huge wealth of Inidan martial history a little 'crouching tiger' treatment.

23rd June 2008, 08:58 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,782	I am always a little cautious about fencing and combat. Is it one on one like a duel which is still not fencing as your life is at stake or just a free for all where one just attacks and blocks in a melee and hopefully survives. In combat reality "hopefully something I will never have to experience" I imagine it is a cross between a shambles and luck backed up by practise or skill. Either way its all quite unpleasant.

23rd June 2008, 10:00 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I personally feel that Gatka is for the 'martial' use of the Tulwar, in that, it not only demonstates the sword play but increases coordination, stamina and balance. I do not agree that it is just dance movements, a number of Martial arts had to go 'undercover' because of restrictions imposed by the ruling elite (including colonial rule) Capoeira was originally disguised as a dance as it was outlawed, but do not be fooled by the 'strange' dance like movements which are used as avoidance and well as attack. http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/capoeira.html With regards Gatka...I am not saying that swordsman entered the 'melee' like bionic windmills but techniques used would be effective. Especially, I feel, against 'regimented' cut and thrust techniques. I am not saying, either, that Gatka is the only way the Tulwar was used. Many martial arts involve 'dance'.... Martial Arts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts "......As mentioned above, some martial arts in various cultures can be performed in dance-like settings for various reasons, such as for evoking ferocity in preparation for battle or showing off skill in a more stylized manner. Many such martial arts incorporate music, especially strong percussive rhythms. Examples of such war dances include: • Buza - From Russia. • Panther Dance - Burmese Bando with swords (dha) • Gymnopaidiai - ancient Sparta • European Sword dance or Weapon dance of various kinds • Haka - New Zealand • Sabre Dance - depicted in Khachaturian's ballet Gayane • Maasai moran (warrior age-set) dances • Aduk-Aduk - Brunei • Ayyalah - Qatar • Khattak Dance - Afghanistan • Brazil's Capoeira, as well as some similar Afro-Caribbean arts • Dannsa Biodag - Scotland and Scottish sword dances • Hula & Lua - from the traditions of indigenous Hawaiian • Combat Hopak - From Ukraine • Yolah - From Oman/UAE ......" Regards David