Bronze Lance Head

CSinTX · 19th May 2015, 01:22 AM

I know very little about bronze items and the people that used them. They seem to present a good value with relatively low cost so I decided to try to pick up a piece. I got this lance head from the recent Czerny's auction. It was described as central European 1000-800 BC. Can anyone tell me if the time frame and location would be correct? I am impressed with the quality of craftsmanship for such an old item. The blades are actually quite sharp considering the age. It has what appears to be a battle mark on one blade. Would this likely be a hunting item, weapon, or both? What group of people would it have belonged to? What type of wooden haft would it have been attached to?

Thanks,
Casey

http://www.czernys.com/auctions_lot....=55220&asta=50

Roland_M · 21st May 2015, 11:57 AM

Hello Casey,

here is a similar lance tip: http://www.iceman.it/en/lance

Another lance tip (~800 b.c.) from a castle but only in german language: http://www.hasslacherberg.de/Archaeo...schenburg.html

I would say this is a weapon for a warrior and the age is ok.

Regards Roland

fernando · 21st May 2015, 03:35 PM

Sorry for the impertinence but, those holes in the socket ...
Double ?
On the edge side ?
So perfect ?

CSinTX · 21st May 2015, 06:32 PM

Roland, thank you very much for the info. I will read through both sites in full when I get a little more time. The lance head in the first picture does look very similar in basic design.

Fernando, no problem asking these questions. I think we should always ask questions and that's what makes this forum great.

Double ? Yes. I believe this to be the norm? All of the other examples I have found have descriptions that say two holes.

On the edge side ? Yes. Again, the other examples I have found have the holes on the blade edge side. Unfortunately, I can't find any pictures of them turned sideways so the holes can be seen.

So perfect ? I had the same thought. The holes do seem very round. This is a instant concern when examining iron items much newer than this. Then I remembered even the ancient Native Americans used hand drills with stone points to make smooth round holes in materials that weren't too hard. Did the people of the bronze age have the tools to make smooth round holes in something as soft as bronze? I do not know but I suspect so. Maybe someone else can enlighten us.

Best,
Casey

Roland_M · 21st May 2015, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Sorry for the impertinence but, those holes in the socket ...
Double ?
On the edge side ?
So perfect ?

Maybe to put in a stopper? Like on boar spear ("Saufeder" = "sow feather" in german, i have a huge example in my collection). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boar_spear

S.Workman · 21st May 2015, 10:19 PM

This is a quite common type for the Late Bronze Age in Central Europe. The holes are to run a cross tie of wood or bronze through to affix the socket to the spear shaft. The basic form of this spear was used over a very large area and for a very long time, up through the early iron age. I think it would be hard to pin it down either geographically or historically. You should register with academia.edu and download this very well written and informative paper:

https://www.academia.edu/1217073/Lat...eastern_Europe

You can learn a great deal more about this spear type from the paper. Thats a wonderful point to have btw. You should inspect it very carefully with a glass for marks of rotary tools. This will help to find out if its a modern forgery; some are sadly. Thats not to impugn the auction house, its just a fact.
Scads of just this kind of point were sacrificed in bogs, or are found in what are called metalworkers hoards, but which may be a subterranean sacrifice.
As far as the holes go, Bronze Age metalworkers were able to cast and work metal in all kinds of ways. They were actually very skilled. They may have, for instance, softened the bronze by heating it red, then letting it cool. Then the hole is drilled, with a bow drill tipped with a flint or quartzite bit, then reheated and quenched to harden it. You can't treat bronze like iron of course, but that is a technique I have used on bronze. There is a whole community of people who make bronze items, this fellow:
http://www.bronze-age-swords.com
and this guy:
http://www.bronsereplika.no
Its amazing what they can get up to.

CSinTX · 22nd May 2015, 03:59 AM

S.Workman, I have a wealth of info to study now. Thanks so much!

I inspected the point closely and each blade has a number of very small wear marks that travel down the blades from front to back (parallel to the haft). I'm not sure of the origin but they definitely appear hand made. These are not present on the shank. The result of hand sharpening the blades?

Can you comment on patina? I have heard that truly old bronze should be brown more than green. Is that true? At what age should we expect to see this? I assume actual metal content and storage over the years can greatly affect patina?

Best,
Casey

S.Workman · 22nd May 2015, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dafunky1

S.Workman, I have a wealth of info to study now. Thanks so much!

I inspected the point closely and each blade has a number of very small wear marks that travel down the blades from front to back (parallel to the haft). I'm not sure of the origin but they definitely appear hand made. These are not present on the shank. The result of hand sharpening the blades?

Can you comment on patina? I have heard that truly old bronze should be brown more than green. Is that true? At what age should we expect to see this? I assume actual metal content and storage over the years can greatly affect patina?

Best,
Casey

It has probably been in a collection, or collections, for a long time. When that occurs (common in Europe) adventurous people sometimes try to clean them with files, steel wool, whatever. That will leave that kind of mark. The patina looks like it might be legit, but its hard saying. There are many circumstances that will lead to a green patina, one of them is immersion then draining. The wet bronze oxidizes in the air, so in Mycenaean Greece for instance there are greenish bronzes.This is because despite the dry climate, when it rains, it floods tombs or shaft graves which stay sodden then dry over time. Its the constant change it atmosphere that changes the bronzes green.
I am no expert, but I am encouraged by the slightly flattened profile of the socket, and the transverse thickening there. If its the work of a forger, he knows his business.

19th May 2015, 01:22 AM	#1
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	Bronze Lance Head I know very little about bronze items and the people that used them. They seem to present a good value with relatively low cost so I decided to try to pick up a piece. I got this lance head from the recent Czerny's auction. It was described as central European 1000-800 BC. Can anyone tell me if the time frame and location would be correct? I am impressed with the quality of craftsmanship for such an old item. The blades are actually quite sharp considering the age. It has what appears to be a battle mark on one blade. Would this likely be a hunting item, weapon, or both? What group of people would it have belonged to? What type of wooden haft would it have been attached to? Thanks, Casey http://www.czernys.com/auctions_lot....=55220&asta=50 Attached Images

22nd May 2015, 03:59 AM	#7
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	S.Workman, I have a wealth of info to study now. Thanks so much! I inspected the point closely and each blade has a number of very small wear marks that travel down the blades from front to back (parallel to the haft). I'm not sure of the origin but they definitely appear hand made. These are not present on the shank. The result of hand sharpening the blades? Can you comment on patina? I have heard that truly old bronze should be brown more than green. Is that true? At what age should we expect to see this? I assume actual metal content and storage over the years can greatly affect patina? Best, Casey Last edited by dafunky1; 22nd May 2015 at 04:14 AM.

21st May 2015, 11:57 AM	#2
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	Hello Casey, here is a similar lance tip: http://www.iceman.it/en/lance Another lance tip (~800 b.c.) from a castle but only in german language: http://www.hasslacherberg.de/Archaeo...schenburg.html I would say this is a weapon for a warrior and the age is ok. Regards Roland

21st May 2015, 03:35 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Sorry for the impertinence but, those holes in the socket ... Double ? On the edge side ? So perfect ?

21st May 2015, 06:32 PM	#4
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	Roland, thank you very much for the info. I will read through both sites in full when I get a little more time. The lance head in the first picture does look very similar in basic design. Fernando, no problem asking these questions. I think we should always ask questions and that's what makes this forum great. Double ? Yes. I believe this to be the norm? All of the other examples I have found have descriptions that say two holes. On the edge side ? Yes. Again, the other examples I have found have the holes on the blade edge side. Unfortunately, I can't find any pictures of them turned sideways so the holes can be seen. So perfect ? I had the same thought. The holes do seem very round. This is a instant concern when examining iron items much newer than this. Then I remembered even the ancient Native Americans used hand drills with stone points to make smooth round holes in materials that weren't too hard. Did the people of the bronze age have the tools to make smooth round holes in something as soft as bronze? I do not know but I suspect so. Maybe someone else can enlighten us. Best, Casey

21st May 2015, 10:19 PM	#6
S.Workman Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 116	This is a quite common type for the Late Bronze Age in Central Europe. The holes are to run a cross tie of wood or bronze through to affix the socket to the spear shaft. The basic form of this spear was used over a very large area and for a very long time, up through the early iron age. I think it would be hard to pin it down either geographically or historically. You should register with academia.edu and download this very well written and informative paper: https://www.academia.edu/1217073/Lat...eastern_Europe You can learn a great deal more about this spear type from the paper. Thats a wonderful point to have btw. You should inspect it very carefully with a glass for marks of rotary tools. This will help to find out if its a modern forgery; some are sadly. Thats not to impugn the auction house, its just a fact. Scads of just this kind of point were sacrificed in bogs, or are found in what are called metalworkers hoards, but which may be a subterranean sacrifice. As far as the holes go, Bronze Age metalworkers were able to cast and work metal in all kinds of ways. They were actually very skilled. They may have, for instance, softened the bronze by heating it red, then letting it cool. Then the hole is drilled, with a bow drill tipped with a flint or quartzite bit, then reheated and quenched to harden it. You can't treat bronze like iron of course, but that is a technique I have used on bronze. There is a whole community of people who make bronze items, this fellow: http://www.bronze-age-swords.com and this guy: http://www.bronsereplika.no Its amazing what they can get up to.