pamor wengkon

[Marcokeris]

This is my last Yogya keris. Sorry for the light of pics but now in my cowntry the sun is not so good and very blat (winter )

[Marcokeris]

other pics

[Jussi M.]

Bump for niceness

[David]

Sorry i missed this first time around. Not only pamor wengkon but also either a Kul Buntet or perhaps Lintang Mas in the sorsoran and a kendit on the gonjo. I like it, even if the sekar kacang has been compromised.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by David

Sorry i missed this first time around. Not only pamor wengkon but also either a Kul Buntet or perhaps Lintang Mas in the sorsoran and a kendit on the gonjo. I like it, even if the sekar kacang has been compromised.

the blade has a mendarang dapur

[BluErf]

Nicely controlled Wengkon! Is the kul buntet intentional, or a consequence of the picetan reaching the depth of the white pamor level?

[David]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Nicely controlled Wengkon! Is the kul buntet intentional, or a consequence of the picetan reaching the depth of the white pamor level?

Kai Wee, i would image it is intentional because i have seen a few examples of the combination of kul buntet with wengkon.

[Gustav]

I have strong doubts we can call this feature kul buntet. In "Keris di Lombok" this is described as Rembulan or Wulan Gangsal, or Mata Kolo. Never have seen this on a Javanese keris before.

One time as pamor, one as kinatah (or remnants of it):

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Nicely controlled Wengkon! Is the kul buntet intentional, or a consequence of the picetan reaching the depth of the white pamor level?

on the other side the same kul buntel but, IMO,... i LIKE to think ...not intentional!

[David]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Never have seen this on a Javanese keris before.

Really Gustav? I have one. Also Yogyakarta, also with wengkon and also with kendit on the gonjo...

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by David

Really Gustav? I have one. Also Yogyakarta, also with wengkon and also with kendit on the gonjo...

David, if you would post your's, it would be the second I would see, that's all Absolutely no other mind in my words.

[David]

Originally Posted by Gustav

David, if you would post your's, it would be the second I would see, that's all Absolutely no other mind in my words.

Gustav, i so rarely post images of the blades of my keris from my personal collection and i hope you don't mind that i'd rather not break that practice solely to prove a point. But i was just looking at it today, it's still there and hopefully you will take my word for it.

[Gustav]

David, it seems you think, I have doubts about existence of your keris. Absolutely not!

I know, you post very seldom pictures of your keris and I understand and deeply respect it. It absolutely wasn't a request to do this. I simply said:

"if you would post your's, it would be second I would see, that's all".

Oncemore, all I wanted to say in this thread is, calling this feature Kul Buntet is doubtful for me (and I could be wrong), and I have never seen this on a Javanese keris before (and now I do).

[A. G. Maisey]

I've seen this effect in the blumbangan in a few keris, I don't know how many, I haven't kept score, but the best example I know of is in a Peninsula keris that is in a friend's collection.

I don't think we can call it a kul buntet, because the kul buntet is a separately forged coil of material that is applied to the blade, this effect shown here in the blumbangan appears to have been created by cutting through layers of pamor, which in itself demonstrates a high degree of skill and beautiful forge control.

If in fact it is a coil of pamor material that has been inserted as a plug into the blumbangan, it would be more correct to call it a puser. Examination under magnification should allow determination of one or the other.

The wengkon is a seemingly simple pamor, but in fact it is one of the most difficult pamors to forge. It is only very, very recently that a couple of current era makers have mastered the production of this pamor. The example shown here is a nice one.

Marco, does the gonjo have a central line of pamor on its top face, as well as its side faces?

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

....Marco, does the gonjo have a central line of pamor on its top face, as well as its side faces?

No Alan there is not any lines.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Marco.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

This is my last Yogya keris. Sorry for the light of pics but now in my cowntry the sun is not so good and very blat (winter )

Very nice keris Marco, thank you for sharing! BTW, the pictures are very ok.

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by Gustav

David, it seems you think, I have doubts about existence of your keris. Absolutely not!

I know, you post very seldom pictures of your keris and I understand and deeply respect it. It absolutely wasn't a request to do this. I simply said:

"if you would post your's, it would be second I would see, that's all".

Oncemore, all I wanted to say in this thread is, calling this feature Kul Buntet is doubtful for me (and I could be wrong), and I have never seen this on a Javanese keris before (and now I do).

No worries Gustav. It's nice to know that my word is trusted.
In respect to Alan's response, i did have some doubts that this was kul buntet which is why i also suggested the possibility of lintang mas which from my reading is apparently to be found at the sorsoran. But it may well be something else as well. Closer examination might tell.
My own keris though is clearly a true kul buntet and the kendit on the gonjo also shows a "belt" on the top of the gonjo.

[dewaruci]

I have a brojol keris with wengkon pamor ..... I hope, can useful to all

[Boedhi Adhitya]

As I know it here in Java, this kind of pamor in blumbangan called 'tlaga membeng'. "Tlaga" means lake, (much bigger than "blumbang"= pond/fishing pond), "membeng" is rippling water, the effect you get if you throw a stone in the middle of a lake/pond.

It is a very positive pamor. Some are intentionally made, as Marco's, and some aren't. Those who aren't usually came in Beras Wutah or Pedharingan Kebak pamor.

On Marco's keris, it's made by the precise cutting of blumbangan through the wengkon line. It also need a precise forging so the wengkon line laid where it should.

The best I've seen is a keris with Adeg Wengkon and Tlaga Membeng. Black and shining iron, grey-greenish edge/steel, sharp, white pamor. A pamor lines on each side of ganja. As perfect as if you draw it with a scriber.

Simple pamor, but not simple to make.

No, I don't make up the term 'Tlaga Membeng' if ones wondering

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for sharing your opinion with us Pak Boedhi.

It is certain the telaga ngembeng ( membeng, membleng) is a well recognised pamor, however, in my understanding it is an accidental pamor (pamor tiban), it cannot be an intentionally made pamor, and it cannot be created by the insertion of a piece of coiled pamor.

Looking at Marco's blade I am uncertain if this effect has been created by insertion of a separate piece of pamor or not.

In the example posted by Gustav, it is clear that the lake is formed by pamor already within the body of the blade, however, the exposure of this pamor is so perfect that I doubt it is an accidental exposure.

I accept that different interpretations of pamor motifs exist, and I accept that what you have posted is your understanding of what constitutes pamor tlaga membeng.

[PenangsangII]

so far the explanation of whether certain pamors are considered positive or negative came from the philosophy behind the motifs. I would like to know whether anyone can really communicate with the keris, whether certain keris is suitable or compatible with the owner?

And WRT communication / tayuh, is this method generally accepted within the kratons of Solo and Yogya as another way to identify or appraise a keris?

[kulbuntet]

Could the pamor on the pejetan be Telaga Membleng?

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thank you for sharing your opinion with us Pak Boedhi.

It is certain the telaga ngembeng ( membeng, membleng) is a well recognised pamor, however, in my understanding it is an accidental pamor (pamor tiban), it cannot be an intentionally made pamor, and it cannot be created by the insertion of a piece of coiled pamor.

Looking at Marco's blade I am uncertain if this effect has been created by insertion of a separate piece of pamor or not.

In the example posted by Gustav, it is clear that the lake is formed by pamor already within the body of the blade, however, the exposure of this pamor is so perfect that I doubt it is an accidental exposure.

I accept that different interpretations of pamor motifs exist, and I accept that what you have posted is your understanding of what constitutes pamor tlaga membeng.

Sorry for being late on replying your post, Pak Alan. When you travel abroad through 5 countries in 3 weeks, you may have something else as your top priorities. Packing and unpacking for sure

Well, as you've said, Tlaga Membeng is a well-recognized pamor. Thus I wonder why no one suggests it for it's name.

Tlaga Membeng simply described as several concentric circles lines pamor which reside inside the blumbangan. To make it happens, it takes two conditions : several layers of paralel pamor deep enough inside blumbangan, and a bowl-shaped blumbangan. Both are controlable. In fact, bowl-shaped blumbangan not that common, so some "engineering" must be taken to make a tlaga membeng. Yet, many peoples think it is a tiban pamor. On some might be, but on the others, I think not.

Regading "Tiban", it is a rather obscure. For example, we always think that Udan Mas pamor is a rekan pamor. But some peoples said, there is a tiban udan mas, and it is the best udan mas. And I've seen some blades with tiban udan mas pamor on particular blades. It's pattern and layering is as such that it is almost impossible to make it intentionally. On the contrary, we always think Raja Gundala pamor is a tiban ones. But I know a blade which belongs to notable keris expert in Surakarta which carries obviously made intentionally by the smith, and it is an old blade. Yet, the owner still called it Raja Gundala. Thus, I see tiban as an option. Surely, you don't have tiban blarak sineret or tiban ron gendhuru.

When I first make a post in this thread, I've never handled Marco's blade before. But last week, Marco showed me the blade, and I asure you it is not made by inserting a piece of coiled pamor. And anyway, tlaga membeng pattern isn't the coiled one. As I've written before, it is made by precise cutting of blumbangan into a bowl shaped, and the bottom of the bowl just touching the wengkon layers (which is parallel to the blade), thus exposing it as a several concentric circle lines.

Penangsang II,
As far as I understand it, tayuh is never really an important factor to appraise keris according to Yogyakarta Court Standart. The first is historical background behind the blades. Then, the workmanship.

I hope I make myself clear.



Best Regards,

Boedhi Adhitya

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Boedhi, although telaga ngembleng is a well known pamor, possibly it depends upon where one lives as to how well known it is. I myself was reluctant to suggest it, because on my screen I simply could not see sufficient detail to know if I was looking at a puser or at telaga ngembleng.You have now confirmed that this effect in Marco's blade has not been formed by the insertion of a coil, and I thank you for that.

In respect of the classification of any particular pamor as exclusively an accidental, or an intentional pamor, I have no particular inclination to debate this point. Opinions in this matter vary. I personally am receptive to all opinions of this nature, and do not favour one over another.

As with many things in life, it all depends upon which school one attended.

My understanding remains that telaga ngembleng is an accidental pamor, but this is only because the bulk of opinion that I have encountered in respect of this pamor motif has been that it is an accidental pamor, and may not be intentionally formed.

As I noted in my earlier post:-

I accept that different interpretations of pamor motifs exist, and I accept that what you have posted is your understanding of what constitutes pamor tlaga membeng.

In these matters we are all permitted our own opinion.

[David]

Sorry to revive this old thread, but i was searching for something else and happened upon it and it raised the question in my head. If this pamor motif on this keris is not kul buntet, what would folks be calling it? Thanks!

[Gustav]

.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, I read this as a square, or at least as intended to be a square, thus it is Kuto Mesir, or Kutu Masir.

In terms of talismanic value it can be regarded as being similar to Kul Buntet, but as having a stronger force.

[SidJ]

That is a superb looking keris at #26! Do you have the full image?

[David]

Here you go Sid.