composite miquelet hunting rifle.

cornelistromp · 14th August 2009, 05:50 PM

Hi,

as I recently found out it is prohibited to list arms from running auctions

herewith a piece from my collection.
it comes from the arms chamber of the count of Erbach (Carl Philip) . Castle Kranichstein.
a nice detail is that the barrel and lock are probably taken from the war against the Turkish ottoman in 1683 at Vienna.
the Barrel (with damask (wootz)) and the lock are both of an extremely high quality.
the side plate is Leda and the swan.
provenance:Keith Neil nr696

Gavin Nugent · 15th August 2009, 04:33 AM

Very Nice, quite a nice collection of arms you have presented over time.
I do not normally take an interest in firearms but the overall quality of this piece is lovely.
I like the muzzle and the decorations found on this piece. Well married with great providence too, congrats.

Gav

Matchlock · 15th August 2009, 07:01 PM

Hi Cornelis,

I have to consent to Gav's lines: this is a real high quality piece indeed.

BTW, I would not call it composite; it was common use in all the old nobility arsenals (Gewehrkammern) to restock fine Oriental barrels and sometimes locks in the German manner.

I define 'composite' as composed of older parts at some later time than the working life in order to purport the impression of a homogenous piece. The stock of this piece can be dated to ca. 1740, though, which is no doubt within the 'second working life' of the iron parts.

It is highly unusual in having bone finials engraved in late 16th century style to both the forestock and the ramrod. The ramrod should consequently be equipped with a threaded iron finial on its rear end.

The style of the raised elongated and fluted muzzle section (Mündungskopf) was copied in the Oriental regions from early 16th North Italian and South German barrels. I posted photos of such in quite a few of my threads.

First class provenance as of your gun further adds to both the material and the immaterial value.

Well done, pal! Keep trackin'!

Best,
Michael

cornelistromp · 16th August 2009, 09:33 PM

thank you Gav for your kind compliment and of course thank you Michael for
the compliments and expert comments.

may I add only one small note by the Date, the initial C on the barrel refers to Phillipp Carl, Count of Erbach. (1677-1736).
Both Keith Neil and Christies have dated this rifle Circa 1700, I presume because the shape of the (very) thick Butt and flat engraved counter plate which was in fashion at the end of the 17thC.

Thank you and best Regards

cornelistromp · 24th August 2009, 07:26 PM

HI Michael,

thank you for the comments only one small note on the date.
this rifle was owned by Philipp Carl count of Erbach who lived between 1677-1736. I'm sure he did not use it after his dead

The rifle was dated by Keith Neil and by Christies as a late 17THC rifle.
I presume this is based of the very thick butt type and the flat engraved counter plate.

regards from Holland

Pukka Bundook · 26th August 2009, 02:54 PM

Cornelistromp,

Lovely rifle!
Very high quality twisted barrel. Very nice stock, the sort of gun one has to pick up and handle!

I would have to agree with the experts, very late 17th C.
The bridle for the cock is a very effective and unusual arrangement. Altogether lovely!

Great provenance too...
Congratulations!!

Richard.

Matchlock · 27th August 2009, 05:01 PM

Hi Cornelis and Richard,

I beg to differ but brass mounts were not common with sporting guns in the 17th century; they were iron instead.

Moreover, late 17th and early 18th century triggers used to be broader and end in a pronounced scroll, only to name a few dating criteria.

The thick butt and butt plate were still in use well up into the 1720's-30's.

Last, as we know that the owner of the gun died in 1736 and I gave a tentative date of 'ca. 1740' I think I got quite well near the facts. The earliest possible date for the stock would in my opinion be 'ca. 1730'.

Best,
Michael

cornelistromp · 27th August 2009, 09:09 PM

Hi Michael,

maybe you are right with your dating, however it is not easy without a lock
as the same period of the stock.
never the less I noticed a few features of this rifle that make me point at the end of the 17thC.

the straight trigger (without the Louis XIV scroll) has been used frequently from 1650 to around 1690. the earliest pistols with these type of trigger I can recall are the ivory stocked maastricht pistols.(1650-1680) Around 1690-1750 the scroll type came into fashion and the straight trigger reappeared in the third quarter of the 18thC.

after 1680 guilded brass mounts were often used next to the more common iron mounts but very typical for the the last decade of the 17thC is the flat
engraved counter-lock plate which disappeared almost totally in the first half of the 18thC.
The baluster shaped ramrod pipes are a very good dating feature of the end of the 17thC. this baluster shaped ramrod pipes were replaced by faceted shaped ramrod pipes in the first half of the 18thC.

taking above into consideration together with the butt which, whilst retaining the cheek piece and butt trap, has the outline and "inflated" thickness characterizing French style guns of the 1680s. make me date this gun 40years earlier then 1730.

best regards from Holland

14th August 2009, 05:50 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	composite miquelet hunting rifle. Hi, as I recently found out it is prohibited to list arms from running auctions herewith a piece from my collection. it comes from the arms chamber of the count of Erbach (Carl Philip) . Castle Kranichstein. a nice detail is that the barrel and lock are probably taken from the war against the Turkish ottoman in 1683 at Vienna. the Barrel (with damask (wootz)) and the lock are both of an extremely high quality. the side plate is Leda and the swan. provenance:Keith Neil nr696 Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 15th August 2009 at 03:51 PM.

15th August 2009, 04:33 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Very Nice Very Nice, quite a nice collection of arms you have presented over time. I do not normally take an interest in firearms but the overall quality of this piece is lovely. I like the muzzle and the decorations found on this piece. Well married with great providence too, congrats. Gav

27th August 2009, 09:09 PM	#8
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	Hi Michael, maybe you are right with your dating, however it is not easy without a lock as the same period of the stock. never the less I noticed a few features of this rifle that make me point at the end of the 17thC. the straight trigger (without the Louis XIV scroll) has been used frequently from 1650 to around 1690. the earliest pistols with these type of trigger I can recall are the ivory stocked maastricht pistols.(1650-1680) Around 1690-1750 the scroll type came into fashion and the straight trigger reappeared in the third quarter of the 18thC. after 1680 guilded brass mounts were often used next to the more common iron mounts but very typical for the the last decade of the 17thC is the flat engraved counter-lock plate which disappeared almost totally in the first half of the 18thC. The baluster shaped ramrod pipes are a very good dating feature of the end of the 17thC. this baluster shaped ramrod pipes were replaced by faceted shaped ramrod pipes in the first half of the 18thC. taking above into consideration together with the butt which, whilst retaining the cheek piece and butt trap, has the outline and "inflated" thickness characterizing French style guns of the 1680s. make me date this gun 40years earlier then 1730. best regards from Holland Attached Images

15th August 2009, 07:01 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cornelis, I have to consent to Gav's lines: this is a real high quality piece indeed. BTW, I would not call it composite; it was common use in all the old nobility arsenals (Gewehrkammern) to restock fine Oriental barrels and sometimes locks in the German manner. I define 'composite' as composed of older parts at some later time than the working life in order to purport the impression of a homogenous piece. The stock of this piece can be dated to ca. 1740, though, which is no doubt within the 'second working life' of the iron parts. It is highly unusual in having bone finials engraved in late 16th century style to both the forestock and the ramrod. The ramrod should consequently be equipped with a threaded iron finial on its rear end. The style of the raised elongated and fluted muzzle section (Mündungskopf) was copied in the Oriental regions from early 16th North Italian and South German barrels. I posted photos of such in quite a few of my threads. First class provenance as of your gun further adds to both the material and the immaterial value. Well done, pal! Keep trackin'! Best, Michael

16th August 2009, 09:33 PM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	thank you Gav for your kind compliment and of course thank you Michael for the compliments and expert comments. may I add only one small note by the Date, the initial C on the barrel refers to Phillipp Carl, Count of Erbach. (1677-1736). Both Keith Neil and Christies have dated this rifle Circa 1700, I presume because the shape of the (very) thick Butt and flat engraved counter plate which was in fashion at the end of the 17thC. Thank you and best Regards

24th August 2009, 07:26 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	HI Michael, thank you for the comments only one small note on the date. this rifle was owned by Philipp Carl count of Erbach who lived between 1677-1736. I'm sure he did not use it after his dead The rifle was dated by Keith Neil and by Christies as a late 17THC rifle. I presume this is based of the very thick butt type and the flat engraved counter plate. regards from Holland

26th August 2009, 02:54 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Cornelistromp, Lovely rifle! Very high quality twisted barrel. Very nice stock, the sort of gun one has to pick up and handle! I would have to agree with the experts, very late 17th C. The bridle for the cock is a very effective and unusual arrangement. Altogether lovely! Great provenance too... Congratulations!! Richard.

27th August 2009, 05:01 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cornelis and Richard, I beg to differ but brass mounts were not common with sporting guns in the 17th century; they were iron instead. Moreover, late 17th and early 18th century triggers used to be broader and end in a pronounced scroll, only to name a few dating criteria. The thick butt and butt plate were still in use well up into the 1720's-30's. Last, as we know that the owner of the gun died in 1736 and I gave a tentative date of 'ca. 1740' I think I got quite well near the facts. The earliest possible date for the stock would in my opinion be 'ca. 1730'. Best, Michael