Afghan Sousson Pata?

CourseEight · 31st May 2009, 06:28 PM

Hello All!

I know khyber knives are sometimes referred to as "salawar yataghans" but here is something different I recently picked up. It's a standard yataghan or sousson pata blade with an obviously afghan-influenced handle. I have been unable to find examples of something similar. The blade has a ricasso so I'm thinking this may be from the India side of the border. I would appreciate thoughts on age, relative scarcity, etc. Thanks!

--Radleigh

kronckew · 31st May 2009, 08:01 PM

it does have a more pronounced 'S' curve than the more std. version like mine, and the knuckle guard is a nice touch. unsharpened ricasso is more of an indian style, but it still looks khyber to me. i like it. blade doesn't look like a turkish/balkan yat to me as it has the acute triangle look of the khyber knife. does it have a 'T' spine? can't tell from the photo.

my salawar yat for comparison

my balkan karakulak yat for comparison.

kinda reminds me of this one found googling:

found a notation somewhere that these style were also popular south of the khyber pashtun areas in india which may be the source of the atypical ricasso.

CourseEight · 31st May 2009, 10:12 PM

This piece does not have a T spine, no, and I think that definitely gives it more of an indian feel in-hand.

Here is a picture of my khyber, this piece, and my indian sousson pata next to one another. Sadly I don't own a proper turkish yataghan, but the indian ones seem to rise more at the tip anyway.

The khyber pashtun region sounds like a good bet to me!

Jim McDougall · 1st June 2009, 04:00 AM

This is a fascinating piece Radleigh, and while I cannot say I have ever seen anything exactly like it, I think your Afghan assessment is most likely.
I would suggest that this is a tribal item from the northwest frontiers of India in probably latter 19th century, possibly into the 3rd Afghan War period (1919).
The hilt is of Afghan style, the recurved blade very much yataghan, sosun patah as noted.
In these times of geopolitical flux as 'The Great Game' raged, the 'borders' were anything but defined, especially tribally.
I think the Anglicized military swords used by the Afghan military c.1880's to 1919, with distinct knuckleguard, as seen on many Khyber knives so mounted reflect the popularity of adding this feature to these edged weapons.

An interesting hybrid, a karud type hilt, yataghan type blade with ricasso, and knucklebow.......absolutely fantastic, and what a perfect addition to a grouping of weapons from these regions in these times.
Definitely a great prospect for more research.

All the best,
Jim

P.S. The bottom illustration of Khyber with knuckleguard Kronckew posted has possibilities....where it is from ?

kronckew · 1st June 2009, 07:39 AM

hi jim, found it at:
http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/

The Corps of the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers
MUSEUM of TECHNOLOGY
Arborfield, near Reading, Berkshire, UK

they have a good on-line weapons collection including a number of sharp pointy things. it's weapon 321 under 'swords'.

weapons page link

31st May 2009, 06:28 PM	#1
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Afghan Sousson Pata? Hello All! I know khyber knives are sometimes referred to as "salawar yataghans" but here is something different I recently picked up. It's a standard yataghan or sousson pata blade with an obviously afghan-influenced handle. I have been unable to find examples of something similar. The blade has a ricasso so I'm thinking this may be from the India side of the border. I would appreciate thoughts on age, relative scarcity, etc. Thanks! --Radleigh Attached Images

31st May 2009, 08:01 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	it does have a more pronounced 'S' curve than the more std. version like mine, and the knuckle guard is a nice touch. unsharpened ricasso is more of an indian style, but it still looks khyber to me. i like it. blade doesn't look like a turkish/balkan yat to me as it has the acute triangle look of the khyber knife. does it have a 'T' spine? can't tell from the photo. my salawar yat for comparison my balkan karakulak yat for comparison. kinda reminds me of this one found googling: found a notation somewhere that these style were also popular south of the khyber pashtun areas in india which may be the source of the atypical ricasso. Last edited by kronckew; 31st May 2009 at 08:41 PM.

31st May 2009, 10:12 PM	#3
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	This piece does not have a T spine, no, and I think that definitely gives it more of an indian feel in-hand. Here is a picture of my khyber, this piece, and my indian sousson pata next to one another. Sadly I don't own a proper turkish yataghan, but the indian ones seem to rise more at the tip anyway. The khyber pashtun region sounds like a good bet to me! Attached Images

1st June 2009, 04:00 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	This is a fascinating piece Radleigh, and while I cannot say I have ever seen anything exactly like it, I think your Afghan assessment is most likely. I would suggest that this is a tribal item from the northwest frontiers of India in probably latter 19th century, possibly into the 3rd Afghan War period (1919). The hilt is of Afghan style, the recurved blade very much yataghan, sosun patah as noted. In these times of geopolitical flux as 'The Great Game' raged, the 'borders' were anything but defined, especially tribally. I think the Anglicized military swords used by the Afghan military c.1880's to 1919, with distinct knuckleguard, as seen on many Khyber knives so mounted reflect the popularity of adding this feature to these edged weapons. An interesting hybrid, a karud type hilt, yataghan type blade with ricasso, and knucklebow.......absolutely fantastic, and what a perfect addition to a grouping of weapons from these regions in these times. Definitely a great prospect for more research. All the best, Jim P.S. The bottom illustration of Khyber with knuckleguard Kronckew posted has possibilities....where it is from ?

1st June 2009, 07:39 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	hi jim, found it at: http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/ The Corps of the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers MUSEUM of TECHNOLOGY Arborfield, near Reading, Berkshire, UK they have a good on-line weapons collection including a number of sharp pointy things. it's weapon 321 under 'swords'. weapons page link