Russian hunting knives of the 16th-18th and 19th centuries

[Mercenary]

Just pics

16-18th

[Mercenary]

18th

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

18th

Thank you! Very interesting

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Thank you! Very interesting

Tula (city). Technique similar to this:

[ariel]

This is a fragment of a long and detailed article by Novosyolov in the Russian journal " Studies of historical weapons #11. Till recently, Russian literature relied on 3 varieties of old Russian knives: boot knife, belt knife and saadak knife. Novosyolov pinpoints their European and Islamic ( Turkish specifically) motives and suggests that the classification in question was a myth created by one Yakovlev and perpetuated from there on.

Since I am one of the very few on this Forum who knows Russian language, the rest of Forumites will remain in the dark about the veracity of Novosyolov's analysis and conclusions. But just to copy pictures of various knives and figures from the article is not enough: a full translation of the text is needed for anyone with an interest in the field.

Just a general comment: since this is not my area of even minimal interest, I am not qualified to critique or even spend any time going deep into the subject. But some people here may want to know more about that topic.

Overall, knives are IMHO the toughest variety of blades weapons to attribute. Swords were valued fighting implements, knives were by and large utilitarian objects discarded easily. There is a disappointing scarcity of old Russian knives in existence and that prevents any statistically-based classification.
Suffice it to say that the long and narrow-bladed inward curving dagger widely believed by the Russian collectors and arms historians to be the classic example of the so-called saadak knife exists as a solitary (!) example.



Also, taking into account that all Russian weapons have their origins either in Turkic or European traditions, it is difficult to imagine that knives,-the short-bladed ones,- are any different. Many societies preserved their " traditional" weapons: Japan, Turkey, Iran, India, Balkans etc. and contunued to produce them until recently and often even now. But the examples discussed in Novosyolov's paper ( XIV-XVII centuries ) ceased to remain in use 400 years ago.... There are more 2000-3000 years old Roman and Greek swords and knives in the museums than their Russian counterparts dating to the above time period.

Tough topic to study.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

since this is not my area of even minimal interest, I am not qualified to critique or even spend any time going deep into the subject.

Then just read the article again. The pictures show exactly Russian knives. This is not reasonable without knowing the subject, to argue with the archives of the Armory Chamber of the Moscow Kremlin and the curator of its collection.

Originally Posted by ariel

There is a disappointing scarcity of old Russian knives in existence and that prevents any statistically-based classification.

That is why I posted these pictures. Just look and learn something more.

Originally Posted by ariel

Also, taking into account that all Russian weapons have their origins either in Turkic or European traditions, it is difficult to imagine that knives,-the short-bladed ones,- are any different.

You know all sabers have their origins in Turkic traditions? And what?

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Then just read the article again. The pictures show exactly Russian knives. This is not reasonable without knowing the subject, to argue with the archives of the Armory Chamber of the Moscow Kremlin and the curator of its collection.




That is why I posted these pictures. Just look and learn something more.




You know all sabers have their origins in Turkic traditions? And what?

I did actually read the Novosyolov's article. I wonder, however, whether you have read my post as well as Novosyolov's article carefully enough.

Novosyolov's article is kind of divided into 2 parts.
First, he addressed the accepted dogma that pictures by von Herberstein and General Viskovatov reflected the reality by comparison of the old drawings with actual examples from the Moscow museum ( Armory Chamber of the Moscow Kremlin ) that served as original for the pictures.
Among the 6 knives pictured by von Herberstein and Viskovatov not a single one was of Russian origin:
-The first from the left ("belt knife") is actually a baginet ( bayonet) of Swedish manufacture.
-Next one is a dagger with an ivory handle and animal head for a pommel.
Current Museum description defines it as an 18 century Oriental dagger.
-Yet the next one is currently attributed by the Museum as Indian 17-18 century

-Next is by far the most famous dagger of Prince Staritsky, variously called either " kinjal" or " saadak knife". The latter is directly contradicted by the next example( see below) and the former is just a generic term for fighting ( military) knives in Russian language. The defining feature of that dagger is a long and very narrow down-curved blade. Mr. Novosyolov does not provide any attribution and silently agrees with the " kinjal" name. I am surprised that he did not mention the 11-12 century Ghaznavid dagger from the Furussia collection ( " The art of the Muslim knight", Fig. 143), a form virtually identical to the Staritsky's dagger. Somewhat similar Ghaznavid 11-12 century daggers, also with down-curved but wider blades are shown there, too ( ibid. Figs 138-139).
Whether Staritsky's dagger is a later rendition of the above Ghaznavid daggers brought to Russia from some Oriental locality or a Russian made ( unreadable inscriptions " ...imitating Arabic-like inscriptions") is unknown, but its original construction is definitely not Russian, but taken from the above very old daggers.

-Next one is an alleged " saadak knife" with wide yataghan-like blade, currently attributed to Turkey 18 century.

- Next is a so-called" boot knife, in reality Indian 17-18 century

-And the last one is a yet another " boot knife" , in reality Iranian or Turkish Khanjar 18 century.

Thus, this part of Mr. Novosyolov's paper is very important for the Russian study of historical arms. For the first time in the history of the Moscow Museum he actually pulled the models for the von Herberstin and Viskovatovs drawings and destroyed the myth of the " Russian boot, belt and saadak knives". Moreover he had convincingly demonstrated that none of the daggers in question had anything to do with Russian tradition.
I do not argue with Mr. Novosyolov on that , I applaud him.

The second part of his article deals with several remarkably uniform fighting or hunting knives looking like Persian/Indo-Persian Kards with significantly longer blades.
One of them has a mark "OIR" ( or "OIK") in ) Latin letters, and has a silhouette of Oriental " habaki" ( I do not know its Turkish/Persian name, but Philip Tom and Kirill Rivkin use the above moniker, so I adhere to it) applied to the blade with silver koftgari technique. These superficial silhouettes were and still are used on Ottoman yataghans and bichaqs as well as Persian/Indo-Persian Pesh-Kabzes.

They have handle construction reminiscent of Oriental daggers ( separate pommel, grip, bolster) , one has a cylindrical cap bolster with a flat top ( See yataghan of Bayezid II or the Crimean Golden Horde yataghans from Tekstilshchik ( Danilenko, Shvetzov,Gershkovich. Arch. Inst.Natl. Acad.Sci. Ukraine, 1991, vol.58) and Quipchak dagger from Chingul Kurgan (Otroshchenko and Rassamakin, Archeologiya ( Ukr.) 1986, vol. 53). Regretfully, Moscow Museum restoration group put a new cylindrical pommel on another dagger and the authenticity cannot be claimed anymore.

Thus, 1 out of 4 presented allegedly "old Russian" daggers is not Russian at all ( as per decorations and blade markings) and the overall construction of all 4 faithfully reproduces Oriental daggers (blade length does not count: all of the above daggers are defined as the "hunting" ones). Importantly, none show any Russian markings.


To your last comment: Yes, all sabers in the entire world originate from South Siberian/Khazar traditions , Russia being no exception. But we still easily attribute some saber blades to India, Ottomans, Persia, Aravia, SE Asia and even England ( 1796 pattern). I know of no Russian models showing any constructional originality.
Moreover, we are discussing here not sabers, but daggers. Do you know and can you show any fighting shortbladed weapon that would boast unquestionably Russian heritage? I would love to see it and learn something new.

With best wishes.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

and the overall construction of all 4 faithfully reproduces Oriental daggers (blade length does not count: all of the above daggers are defined as the "hunting" ones)

Could you please show similar Oriental daggers?

Originally Posted by ariel

blade length does not count

Very interesting... Why?

Originally Posted by ariel

Importantly, none show any Russian markings

Excuse me, what is this? Hammer and sickle?

[Mercenary]

I have searched on Russian forums . If the knives indicated in this topic belonged to the upper class, the elite, then simple Russian folk knives looked like this:
But such knives did not get into the Kremlin Armory

[Mercenary]

O! Ariel, it turns out you consulted on Russian forums and even collected old Russian knives! It's your?

[Mercenary]

1. Russia. 10th-11th century. Constant wars with the Turks. In the 12th century, the union and mixing of peoples.

2. Iran. 10th-11th century. Constant wars with the Turks. By the 12th century the Turks were the ruling dynasties in Iran.

3. India. 11th century. The Turks invade India. By the 12th century, a Turkic dynasty rules in Delhi.


1. Russia. 13th century. Invasion of Mongols and Turks.

2. Iran. 13th century. Invasion of the Mongols and Turks.

3. India. 13th century. The Mongols are raiding the northern borders.


1. Russia. 15th century. It is still under the control of the Mongols and Turks. Of the 14,000 Russian surnames, 500 are Turkic (of which there are a lot of noble families). Of the 500,000 words, 5,000 are Turkic.

2. Iran. 15th-18th century. The Turkic dynasty rules.

3. India. 16th century. Invasion of the Turko-Mongols. Influence of the Turko-Afghans up to the 18th century.

But
1. Turkic cards in Iran are Iranian weapons.
2. Turkic cards in India are Indian weapons.
3. Turkic cards in Russia are Oriental weapons.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

I know of no Russian models showing any constructional originality.

learn something new

[ariel]

The upper ones are generic knives., identical blades are seen on Khazar, Celtic, Varangian ( Norsemen, Viking, Norman, - choose your poison:-). What part of Russia did they come from, BTW?

Yes, this is my knife: F. Smagin + location but I can't find my loupe and the letters are small. 20th century. Bought it for a pittance, just to re-sell it to some Russian collector, to raise the intensity of his patriotic fervor. Want it?

Sabers are generic European, nothing specific. I shall take your word they were manufactured in Russia after Oriental /European models, just like all Russian sabers. The upper one is often characterized as " Hungarian magnate". The remaining two have Russian ( likely) gold work, but the construction is generic. All of your examples are from 18-19 century, when Russia copied European sabers. Has it suddenly invented anything original at that time?

Length does not count because hunting weapons ( Hirschfangers etc. had longer blades). BTW, I cited published examples of Oriental predecessors of " Russian" weapons. You might look at them.

Nobody regards cards as genuine, traditional, Indian weapons. They were brought there from Persia. The land of their manufacture did vary and is determined by their decorative elements. You might start looking for a Russian weapon as specific for Russia as Turkish Kilij/Pala for Mamluks/Turkey, Indonesian and Philippine weapons, Nepalese Kukri, Turkish Yataghan, Flissa, Kastane, Omani Kattara and its " fighting sword", Philippine weapons, Chilean Corvo, Indian Patissa and Khanda, and even scores of Sub-Saharan tribal , etc, etc. Just to simplify it for you: show me a bladed weapon that is attributable to Russia just by a quick glance. Do not pay attention to gold decorations of the blade: Tula was very artistic.

The only "Russian" bladed weapon I know is their dragoon saber that was appropriated together with its name from the Caucasus ( shashka) and given a European D-guard to boot.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

The upper ones are generic knives., identical blades are seen on Khazar, Celtic, Varangian ( Norsemen, Viking, Norman, - choose your poison:-). What part of Russia did they come from, BTW?

Identical blades... Ok. The handle, as I understand it, was borrowed from the European rondel dagger, and some differences do not count?

Originally Posted by ariel

Yes, this is my knife: F. Smagin + location but I can't find my loupe and the letters are small. 20th century. Bought it for a pittance, just to re-sell it to some Russian collector, to raise the intensity of his patriotic fervor. Want it?

Very strange. On that forum you were told that the knife is a very common fake. No, thanks. I'm not patriotic so much.

Originally Posted by ariel

Sabers are generic European, nothing specific. I shall take your word they were manufactured in Russia after Oriental /European models, just like all Russian sabers. The upper one is often characterized as " Hungarian magnate". The remaining two have Russian ( likely) gold work, but the construction is generic. All of your examples are from 18-19 century, when Russia copied European sabers. Has it suddenly invented anything original at that time?

1618 and first half of the 17th century. Both sabers were made in the Kremlin Armory. Now it is a museum, and since the 16th century it has been an armory workshop of the Moscow Kremlin.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

Length does not count because hunting weapons ( Hirschfangers etc. had longer blades). BTW, I cited published examples of Oriental predecessors of " Russian" weapons. You might look at them.

Sorry, I have to repeat the question:

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Could you please show similar Oriental daggers?

Originally Posted by ariel

Just to simplify it for you: show me a bladed weapon that is attributable to Russia just by a quick glance.

I have already tried to explain to you in several topics that it is impossible to study the history and history of weapons in particular using "a quick glance". You should know this from your medical practice. Analyzes, additional researches, consultations of other experts are necessary. You can't learn weapons just by flipping through picture albums. This is unacceptable, this is a profanity.
You can read in Russian. To begin with, I can recommend to you the academic work of А.Н.Кирпичников "Древнерусское оружие" (A.N.Kirpichnikov "Old Russian weapons"). You will understand that weapons cannot be considered separately, taken out of the cultural and historical context. Weapons are always associated with an era, costume, decorative art, ritual, etc. Examining individual items with a quick glance - this approach is characteristic of a collector or dealer: he went to the counter, chose and bought something. Science works differently.
You, instead of understanding what real Russian knives looked like, argue with me, but buy fake ones.

[ariel]

You are carefully avoiding a straight and simple answer to my question. And I am not arguing with you: I just politely ask you to show me purely Russian swords.

Thus, I repeat:
- can you show a couple of 16-19 century swords that are genuinely Russian by their construction and origin, and clearly different from any European/Oriental contemporaneous examples?

I am not asking you about " Analyzes, additional researches, consultations of other experts are necessary. You can't learn weapons just by flipping through picture albums. This is unacceptable, this is a profanity."

I am sure you do not need more than 3 seconds to proclaim " This is an Ottoman Pala", "This is an Indian Khanda", "This is an Algerian Flissa". That's what I am asking for. After that you can look carefully at the sword , consult books and experts and suggest that a particular Pala, although Ottoman, was made in Syria or the Balkans. If you could from a single pic "determine" that my knife was a "fake", you should have no problem determining at least the origin of some famous and purely "Russian" swords. Not of Russian manufacture, but primordially Russian, a national sword akin to the above examples. Please do not show examples of lavish decorations by Bushuev or Boyarshchinov: Tula was famous for its bling, but stuck to foreign construction patterns.

If you cannot present such examples, there is no shame to it: British and French armies had their " Mameluke" sabers that they copied from the Egyptian ones. No German develops an inferiority complex from the knowledge that the famous " Bluchersabel" was just a spit image copy of the British 1796 pattern. You also should not despair if you cannot find such examples. We are talking about swords and daggers, not about personalities. And let's not pretend we are professional arms historians: we are reasonably well-read amateurs. There is no need to go into pseudoacademic digressions.

So, how about bringing some examples from Kirpichnikov or any other Russian source that I do not have and am not interested in reading? Russian arms are not my cup of tea and the only reason I entered this discussion is to ask you a question about the topic you have started.

Just BTW: you seem to enjoy using snarky comments. Why? I have never insulted you and do not intend to do it in the future. If I have said something in the past that you perceived as personally negative, I apologize and wish to assure you that it was not my intent. How about returning the courtesy, be polite and avoid " fighting words"?

[Ian]

Gentlemen.

Please! I have risen from my COVID bed to see, yet again, that this type of bickering is just not called for. Why is it that when it comes to things even vaguely Russian there is this animosity? Time to take a break guys. See you in three months.

Ian