Africa,Naga,SEAsia?

[Tim Simmons]

This is a strange short sword,single edged,horn grip.The spike end on the scabbard makes me think Africa but the rest just throws me off,I not seen anything like it.I lean towards Africa any other ideas?OA length in scabbard 87cm. 56cm out of scabbard, blade 43cm.Tim

[wolviex]

I don't know what is it, but my first impression is the remade 20th century military bayonet

[Freddy]

Looks like someone tried to copy a bayonet.

[Tim Simmons]

Hello,I can see what you say,there is a resemblance.It has not been made from a bayonet .It is a slashing weapon, I have the benefit of being able to handle it and I do not think a bayonet was the inspiration.The hook pommel serves excellently stopping any slipping in the hand.The gaurd is harder to explain.Thanks for looking,lets wait untill Tom has had a chance to look at it.Tim PS it could also have a cutlass inspiration.

[Conogre]

I've not seen anything even vaguely similar and I'll be keenly interested to see what developes.
I suspect that it's a custom made piece, but even that is just a wild guess.
The only scabbards I've seen with such a spike are the contemporary "ninja" scabbards.
Very strange.
Mike

[Tim Simmons]

On much closer inspection,I think the blade may well have a western origin,not a bayonet as it is too flexable and absolutely no sign of a fuller.The forte does not seem to have been modified,that looks a bit too narrow for a machete blade.The bulge in the grip is western?Tim

[RSWORD]

OK, I am going to be of some help but also of no help at all. I have a book in Russian on German weapons. There is a sidearm pictured with basically the same hilt type and blade form but alas I cannot read Russian. However, I can make out the date of circa 1920's-30's. I believe I have also seen similar hooked pommel types made in Germany for export to the S American market. An Argentinian model comes to mind but is elusive from my reference books at the moment. The tip of the scabbard appears to be modified with the addition of the spike. Perhaps a WWII trench sidearm with modified scabbard tip.

[Tim Simmons]

Hello Rsword,that is very interesting,I have to say it looks early 20th century and has a frontier feel about it.I now wonder if it could be a sidearm used by German and native forces in the little known fighting in German East Africa during ww1.Thank you very much.Tim PS the spike is very East African.

[tom hyle]

My guess would be EuroSouth American, but it is an odd one. It bears a certain resemblance to the Weyersberg kirschbaum modelo Argentino 1909s, to cite a military model that seems of the broad type, though not exactly. Could this be Philipino? The tip on the (wooden!) scabbard reminds me of the climbing spike on the bottom of Luzon's Kayan spears. I had a nice Luzon sword that had a resemblance to this...Is the pommel a bird, with defined eyes and a line across the base of the beak?

[Tim Simmons]

Hello Tom,that had crossed my mind,I am open to all suggestions,for the time being I am happy with German East Africa, the spike is very much a mini version of the end spike an E African spears.Thanks all Tim.

[tom hyle]

In ways, yes, perhaps especially in the decorative(?) effect, but note how it was formed; by being curled up from a flat piece; it looks to me like I can see that not only the hollow part that grabs the sheath, but the long spike, also, was formed this way. This is the way some kayan spikes I've seen are formed. The African spear "ferules" (the old/traditional Euro. collector/anthropologist term for them) I've seen, in contrast, were forged from a rod, whose end was flattened and then curled to form the socket.

[Tim Simmons]

Hello,the spike is forged from a rod and is solid.The wood does look very SE Asian but could equally be African.Funny when I first bought it yesterday my thoughts said Philippines.Tim

[tom hyle]

The photo fooled me; there looks like a rolled line running down the spike; thanks. I thought of the wood; someone could
ID it, but I didn't figure we coul dget anything meaningful from pictures; it looks mahagaesque, and there's so many of those. Likwise the carving is so basic; could easily be Berbese, or Nepali or probably anything else. I think maybe the only other bare wooden sheaths I've seen coming out of Africa are on flyssas? It's also not very European, and is frankly where I feel my S America idea may fall apart, too....

[Conogre]

This is another of those "look at, digest and come back later to look again" pieces.
Rather than being a military item, I suspect that it's either a settler's item, an overseer's item or a colonist's piece, such as a profesional hunter or such.
My basic "gut feeling" is that it was made to be used in Africa, rather than to be taken home and showed off, with India coming in a distant 2nd.
While nothing more than the meerest indicator, I've got an antique sword cane that's ENTIRELY leather wrapped, made in the distinctive "western" style and with a definite hand-forged blade that has the same pattern worked into the leather as is shown in the scabbard.
The only thing about the cane that I'm 100% sure of, by the way, is that is NOT human skin, as was related to me when I recieved it, an attribution almost solely reserved for African leatherworks.
The aluminum band at the bottom and the rubber tip were my own contributions as I used it for a while, PRE-9/11.
Mike

[tom hyle]

You'rs so right, Congre; this one is a puzzler, at least to me. The sword itself looks European/Eurocolonial to such extent, and the sheath not, that I wonder if the sheath is a replacement made for it at a later date (?), perhaps for a nonEuropean owner, or just in a nonEuropean country by local craftsmen.
A randomish addition to the discussion is that some European mountan-hiking canes/staves have a small spear tip similar to this or to that on a kayan. I once had a Swiss one that was missing a screw-on sheath for more civilized circumstances, and thought it would be just as dandy as a sword cane; a spear cane.....
Ha ha "Congre"; now you're almlost an eel; I just cannot spell your name lately; first conagra (r. tm) then this.......

[Conogre]

You're confusing Conogre with Viagra, or at least blending the two, Tom, an easy ting to do at my age! **grin**
What the original piece actually reminded me of was the Ethiopian artillery style short swords, such as the one I sent to Hal, and if so, that would tend to back up an African origin.
Mike

[Tim Simmons]

Hello.
I think this might well be the source of the blade.This may also strenghten the suggestion that it is from German East Africa.Where a brilliant German Army was unbeaten and only surrendered two weeks after the armistice had been signed.It is the 1898-1905 emergency version sword bayonet, these would have been supplied unfinished, if they got past the Royal Navy.Someone might have a better picture.Tim

[Tim Simmons]

Pictures to compare.

[tom hyle]

Yeah, more similar to the German "butcher" bayonet blade, especially as seen on the 1909 sword and its varients (for instance some German naval cutlasses); the 1909 blade is 15 inches, which is a pretty good match for 43 cm, and this could be one of those type blades, but for the lack of a sharply defined ricassoe (it does look to have a short unsharp bit). Industrial European military blades were/are often produced in quantities and fitted with a variety of hilts, as well as sold naked, and also were often produced in a number of similar versions by different firms, different nations, at different times, and even often display considerable variety within what seems to be a single military conrtract from a single firm (blade length variences of 1/4" to 1/2" are not terribly unusual, in my experience, and I've seen bigger differences, such as WK&C 1909 sword with or without a "granton" type crossways groove at the blade base to grab the sheath-detente spring...).

[Tim Simmons]

I have brought this to the surface again because having shown it to a militaria collector who knows about bayonets and the like, says the blade it too flexible even for an emergency bayonet. This blade is just over 4mm at the forte. The spike on the scabbard shown next to East African spear butts seem to indicate an almost certain East African origin. The blade is not British so I am looking at Germany? Can I jog anyones memory? Could you all look in your books on european sidearms one more time? Tim. PS the scabbard is the middle picture.

[Bill]

Guess it could have come from a lot of places. The scabbard struck me as coming from the Visayas, Philippines 1930-50. There used to be a lot of small tribal people all over the PI, but are disappearing at a rapid rate. In Negros, I have met some Mugahat people that live in the mountain areas, they come down only to trade forest items they find, & have almost no standard dress or bolos because it seems they trade for everything. The spike might be usefull for someone who is constantly traveling steep grades.

[Tim Simmons]

Hi Bill,
Good point. People from the hills in Burma use a cane with a metal spike for the same thing. As mentioned earlier the Philippines had entered my mind. The scabbard is quite long and the whole thing is constructed in such a way that it could function very well as a walking stick especially if you are no taller than 5' 6". An identity on the blade would be really helpful. It does look in real life earlier than 1930s. Is the blade Spanish or American? there is the possibility that the blade might even be Japanese? If the Philippine origin is so. Tim

[Freddy]

Tim, if you think it could be German, perhaps it is a 'hirschfanger'. That's a small hunting sword. Is the blade signed in anyway ?

As to it's origin, it could well be East-africa, as Germany had a colony there in the beginning of the 20th century.

[Tim Simmons]

Hi Freddy,
Thats the problem, there are no marks, I am just trying to push people who may have an interest in militaria. I personely think it is East African without a doubt, and see an African style and practical function, not just as a weapon but as something showy that would be just right to swagger with. Tim

[Tim Simmons]

Looking at some past ebay pictures, I came across this picture from a Belgian seller. As can be seen it is from Ruanda, Buruni or what was Tanganika, I am sure Freddy will say more precisely which area or tribal group. It is funny how answers can come most unexpectedly.

[Freddy]

Tim, I think it's Tutsi but I have never seen a similar sword or knife with that kind of metal spike.

[RSWORD]

Here is a picture of a very similar sword. Unfortunately, I cannot provide too many specifics because the book is in Russian about German swords. However, I can make out that this sword dates circa 1920-30. Looks like a similar match although the scabbard is different than your example but it has been hypothesized that perhaps it is a refitted scabbard.

[Tim Simmons]

Thank you RS, that is very helpful. I think the information gleaned is conclusive and to me most satisfying. The weapon you show has a longer tang with three rivet holes and obviously a version of weapon already in use as Germany lost control of African colonies after 1918. This thread is another shinning example of the fun and knowledge that can be exchanged through an international portal such as here. Thanks to everyone Tim

[RhysMichael]

Does anyone else see a resemblance to the grosse messer in this piece ?

[Tim Simmons]

look here for interesting facts, www.mgtrust.org/gea.htm