African Arm Dagger...finally!

[Emanuel]

I got one, I got one!!!

Usually I see Lew snatch these beauties up, and I've wanted one since I first saw them in one of his posts: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=240

My example has a simple - though beautifully carved - wooden hilt, and what appears to be a very well made blade with compound fullers. There is some script etched into the blade, I cannot tell from the seller's pictures whether it is arabic.
It is missing the scabbard unfortunately.
Comments and some clearer id would be much appreciated.

Regards,
Emanuel

[katana]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Usually I see Lew snatch these beauties up,

Regards,
Emanuel

So..... I'm not the only one that has noticed that


Emanuel, thats a very nice blade....I too like the North African arm knives I think yours is a good example.....hopefully someone will be able to translate the script.

[Freddy]

Very nice knife blade. You should try to find a suitable sheath. On ebay, it's possible to buy cheap tourist knives. But mostly the sheaths are well made.

Katana, this is not a North African knife, rather a West African knife.

[katana]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Katana, this is not a North African knife, rather a West African knife.

Yes Freddy...you are right.....I should have checked what I had written.. ..although it could be from the North West

[Emanuel]

Thanks!

I'll look for an appropriate sheath...I just noticed on the second to last picture it looks like a chunk is broken off the hilt...too bad, it lookd almost perfect!
Any ideas about where specifically examples like this one come from? They seem to vary a lot in shape and blade quality...are some variants specific to certain countries or ethnic groups?

Emanuel

[Lew]

Originally Posted by Manolo

I got one, I got one!!!

Usually I see Lew snatch these beauties up, and I've wanted one since I first saw them in one of his posts: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=240



Regards,
Emanuel

Manolo

I was watching that one and I was tempted to bid on it but I have a draw full of them so I passed on it. It is a nice one I really like the fullers too bad there is no scabbard. Maybe someone can translate the Arabic inscription

Congrats

Lew

[Emanuel]

Hi Lew,

Good thing you passed over it you've made me a happy man.
I can't wait to get my hands on it...and I can understand how you'd have a drawer full of them.
I'll look for the simple leather scabbards with thick braided loop. I think I'll stay away from the ones with snake/croc/miscelaneous reptile skin...

Thanks,
Emanuel

[Tim Simmons]

I think the second picture of the script says Omdurman. This can be seen in other threads so it would normaly be listed as East African although also the North.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3499

[katana]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I think the second picture of the script says Omdurman. This can be seen in other threads so it would normaly be listed as East African although also the North.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3499

Thanks for adding this comment Tim, I was sure (originally) it was North / Sudanese but Freddy (whom I know is very knowledgeable) said it was Western and assumed he was right, and knew something I didn't. Then I started to think that the knife was manfactured in the West and had ended up in the N /NE and then had been inscribed with the Arabic text.

We live ...and learn ....I should really 'challenge' information given... so that there is an explaination as to the statements given....to validate them.
A LESSON LEARNED.....

Tim...do you think this knife could be a relic of the Mahdist era?.....it doesn't seem to have enough age

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Thanks!

I'll look for an appropriate sheath...I just noticed on the second to last picture it looks like a chunk is broken off the hilt...too bad, it lookd almost perfect!
Any ideas about where specifically examples like this one come from? They seem to vary a lot in shape and blade quality...are some variants specific to certain countries or ethnic groups?

Emanuel

Manolo, don't be alarmed because a piece of the hilt is missing. I looked at the picture and it seems to be an old break. This could mean your piece has some age to it.

As to the provenance, Tim is quite right when he states that the origin could be West-Africa. These knives were traded all over the Sahara region and beyond. There are a lot of different styles of arm dagger to be found.

Here is a brand new arm dagger. It was bought by a person who worked in the Sudan, near Darfur. He bought this knife in 2004, in a village between El Fasher, El Geneina and Nyala. The blade is cut from a piece of steel and razor sharp. In addition to the knife, the sheath also contains a long needle and a pair of tweezers. The sheath is made from leather. But to 'embellish' it, the maker took some kind of plastic material with lizard print and added it to the sheath.

Here are two pics of the knife in its sheath. Later, I will post a pic of the knife itself.

[Lew]

Manolo

Most of these daggers are circa 1890-1900. I happen to have an old one that may be from 1875-85 it really is hard to nail down an exact date.

Lew

[Emanuel]

Thanks for the info!

What's somewhat surprising about these blades is the level of refinement they can attain. This is a nice example, but I've seen some with even more complicated fullers. They also show very fine polishing and straight lines. These blades are also thicker...beefier.

1900? so they would have had access to some sort of lath to turn the pommel I imagine. They show a lot of care and craftsmanship, especially the ones with ivory.

I'll write it down as a late 19th-early 20th century western Sahel variant.

Emanuel

[katana]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Thanks for the info!
.

1900? so they would have had access to some sort of lath to turn the pommel I imagine. They show a lot of care and craftsmanship, especially the ones with ivory.
Emanuel

Hi Emanuel, here is some info. I previously posted on primative lathes...I did have a picture of an African craftsman , 19 C but cant find it...



I'm wondering whether the original handles were 'turned' on a primative lathe.... you would only need something like this ... a pole lathe....easily made from local timber and cordage.... these were in common use in medievel Europe and Asia. The cord is wrapped around the 'working' piece, as the pedal is pushed down, the cord 'spins' the wood one way, The branch attached to the other end of the cord is pulled down (putting it under tension) By releasing pressure on the pedal, the branch 'springs' back pulling the cord and 'spins' the 'worked piece' in the opposite direction......then the operation is continually repeated. As the wood is spun it can be worked with a knife of chisel.....as on a 'normal' lathe.

[Lew]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Emanuel, here is some info. I previously posted on primative lathes...I did have a picture of an African craftsman , 19 C but cant find it...



I'm wondering whether the original handles were 'turned' on a primative lathe.... you would only need something like this ... a pole lathe....easily made from local timber and cordage.... these were in common use in medievel Europe and Asia. The cord is wrapped around the 'working' piece, as the pedal is pushed down, the cord 'spins' the wood one way, The branch attached to the other end of the cord is pulled down (putting it under tension) By releasing pressure on the pedal, the branch 'springs' back pulling the cord and 'spins' the 'worked piece' in the opposite direction......then the operation is continually repeated. As the wood is spun it can be worked with a knife of chisel.....as on a 'normal' lathe.

This is a photo of a Sudanese lathe.

Lew

[katana]

Thanks Lew......this is the same picture I had .....but its lost on my hard drive.....somewhere...

[Emanuel]

Thanks Lew and David,

I remember that picture...one of you had posted it in a discussion a while back. I like the design of these things...they didn't just turn the whole thing, rather merging the circular profile with a lozenge. Makes for a really interesting shape, and I bet its comfortable too. The pommel looks pretty substantial, so it could be used in a fight as well I guess.

Emanuel

[Emanuel]

and here's another to make a pair.

This one has the scabbard, rather nice one. It isn't as fancy as the first one, but pretty well made it seems. Also a bit of age to it...comments?
Emanuel

[Rivkin]

The first dagger has a date on it - 1317, i.e. 1900 ad.

[Emanuel]

Thanks Rivkin! This confirms what Lew said.

[paolo]

This is my one. The sheat is worn and has some holes (bugs) but I think your , might be similar. I'm interested to the translation of the writings on the blade. Can someone help me ?
Merry Xmas to all the forum members.
Paolo

[Emanuel]

Hi Paolo!
I think you're post got buried under the others and I didn't see it. Your example does look a lot like mine...it has the same floral decorations, and I think partly the same writing. From looking at the examples in old threads, I take it is says "al -karthoum" and a date, which in your case will also be around 1900 I think. So 1900 Karthoum, Sudan.

Regards,
Emanuel

[paolo]

I've seen that there is another writing on the rear. I'll post it next days. Meanwhile thank You Manolo

Paolo

[paolo]

Here is the pic of the other writing on the blade.
Paolo

[paolo]

Sorry, here is the pic.
Paolo

[FenrisWolf]

Nice examples, all! I too love these blades; they are among my favorites of the African pieces, both for the aesthetics of the hilt itself, and because for some rason the blades seem to be, if you'll pardon the pun, a 'cut above' the average african piece from that region. I have two of them myself, though neither have an inscription. Nor would I mind having Lou's problem, a whole drawer full!

[Tim Simmons]

"cut above" you cannot have been interested in African arms for much time.

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

"cut above" you cannot have been interested in African arms for much time.

I should have been more specific, my mistake. I was thinking in terms of the often crude blades sees in Sudanese daggers, rough metal with file marks. Even the Tuareg pieces that often have elaborate layering and engraving on their hilts tend to have crude blades; functional, but not pretty. Compared to those, these disk-pommeled arm daggers are quite nice. I know that compared to some of the swords and daggers that come out of the Arabian pennensula they aren't all that spectacular (though I think they are vastly superior to the majority of Moroccan jambiyas you see proliferating on ebay, most of which are cheap tourist trash).

[Emanuel]

Warren's post on his Sudanese arm dagger got me looking back on my own daggers.

On one side it says "Al-Kartoum 1317/1900" (top pic).

The opposite side has "Umdurman", and then it has the Hijra date "1100", which would translate to 1688 or so. This doesn't make sense to me...help please.
Furthermore, there is the number 90 just on the other side of the fuller.

Emanuel

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Warren's post on his Sudanese arm dagger got me looking back on my own daggers.

On one side it says "Al-Kartoum 1317/1900" (top pic).

The opposite side has "Umdurman", and then it has the Hijra date "1100", which would translate to 1688 or so. This doesn't make sense to me...help please.
Furthermore, there is the number 90 just on the other side of the fuller.

Emanuel

Bravo Manolo good translation

- 1st inscription => 1317 Al Khartoum (الخرطوم al-Kharṭūm) is the capital of Sudan and of Khartoum State.)

- 2nd inscription => 1(?)00 Omdurman (Standard Arabic Umm Durmān أم درمان) is the largest city in Sudan and Khartoum State

[Emanuel]

Merci, Dom!

I started using some reference sites to transliterate arabic. Slow going but quite enlightening.
For those interested: http://www.eiktub.com/
and http://www.omniglot.com/, a source for most languages and alphabets.

Could the 1?00 be used instead of words? What I mean is, can the pronunciation of numerals be used to spell out names or words?

Best regards,
Emanuel