Stilletto (?) Dagger for ID

Iliad · 9th November 2011, 03:03 AM

Hi guys,
I purchased this dagger from a sales table at a militaria show, just a few days ago. The vendor said that he knew nothing about it. To my inexpert eye it shows some sign of age, namely the discoloured (ivory?) grip and the very worn engraving on the blade. However, since my record of picking replicas when trying to buy originals is so poor, I will not be surprised if the experts tell me that it is merely a replica. There are traces of yellow metal in the engravings.
Any comment will be appreciated, as I am anxious to learn.
Best regards,
Brian

BerberDagger · 9th November 2011, 03:53 AM

Hi,

it seems a composite stiletto probably from 1700 ,the blade probably from a german small sword . But not a bad piece .Nice stiletto.

fernando · 9th November 2011, 09:31 PM

Good acquisition this time, Brian

.
Nice handle, surely silver and certainly ivory... and nice blade too

Jim McDougall · 9th November 2011, 10:04 PM

Hi Brian,
Most attractive dagger! and you profoundly underestimate yourself my friend.
We all have made many misteakes

in our collecting adventures, and over the years you have learned along with the rest of us. Clearly you are becoming more discerning, and as always bold in your acquisitions.

I think it is important to note here that the term 'composite' or remounted is not necessarily a signal of doom in the integrity of a weapon. Edged weapons were often, if not even typically, refurbished in thier working lives, some through many generations. Heirloom blades as well were often mounted in later style hilts in league with current fashion or sometimes even military regulation style hilts. It was not at all uncommon for military officers to mount heirloom or 'trophy' blades in thier swords. It is difficult to find rapiers that have not been refurbished in thier working lives thus becoming 'composite'.

The stiletto was an antiquated weapon by the time which seems most likely for this dagger, but remained desirable in the sense of classical heritage and tradition for members of the gentry and individuals of significant status. The quality and neoclassic styling suggests mid 18th century to latter, as seen by the acanthus like pommel and bolster; similated entwined turks head in silver wire with gadrooned silver bands over ivory.
The blade seems 18th century and the style of engraving and motif aligns with similar on 18th century smallsword and court type swords as well as its general form, as noted by Berber.

Much as in the manner of many dirks and certainly other edged weapons, blades were typically 'recycled' if broken or damaged into these smaller weapons, or as mentioned may have been refurbished from heirloom blades.
That may well be the case here, regardless, it is a most attractive item!
Well done Brian,
All the best,
Jim

kahnjar1 · 10th November 2011, 05:15 AM

I agree with Fernando and Jim. VERY nice find. Just goes to show that things come right eventually.

Stu

Iliad · 10th November 2011, 07:20 AM

Gentlemen ! Thank you so much for the kind comments. I had been bracing myself for politely expressed derision about my uncanny abiliity to pay good money for rubbish; my enthusiasm outruns my knowledge! If I could just turn back the clock and get my money back on the "less than great" items which I have purchased over the years, then I would be quite well off. Thank you again for the boost to my ego.
Best regards to my friends,
Brian

fernando · 10th November 2011, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iliad

... my enthusiasm outruns my knowledge ...

Your'e not alone, son

Jim McDougall · 10th November 2011, 09:19 PM

We all learn together Brian!

and as Fernando notes, you are by absolutely no means alone there....we all have stories big time!!!

broadaxe · 13th November 2011, 02:11 PM

This kind of dagger was favoured by seamen of Anglo-America at the age of sail. I think that the not-so-perfect work utilizing scattered parts of high quality usually stands for self-made composite daggers of that period, the pommel looks to be taken off Georgian flatware. The braided silver wire in "ocean mat" pattern was a popular marine motif. Similar daggers can be seen in Peterson's American Knives and Daggers and Fighting Knives of the Western World; Neumann's Swords & Blades of the American Revolution.

Iliad · 14th November 2011, 04:43 AM

Thank you for the additional information.
Best,
Brian

9th November 2011, 03:03 AM	#1
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Stilletto (?) Dagger for ID Hi guys, I purchased this dagger from a sales table at a militaria show, just a few days ago. The vendor said that he knew nothing about it. To my inexpert eye it shows some sign of age, namely the discoloured (ivory?) grip and the very worn engraving on the blade. However, since my record of picking replicas when trying to buy originals is so poor, I will not be surprised if the experts tell me that it is merely a replica. There are traces of yellow metal in the engravings. Any comment will be appreciated, as I am anxious to learn. Best regards, Brian Attached Images

10th November 2011, 07:20 AM	#6
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Stilletto Gentlemen ! Thank you so much for the kind comments. I had been bracing myself for politely expressed derision about my uncanny abiliity to pay good money for rubbish; my enthusiasm outruns my knowledge! If I could just turn back the clock and get my money back on the "less than great" items which I have purchased over the years, then I would be quite well off. Thank you again for the boost to my ego. Best regards to my friends, Brian

9th November 2011, 03:53 AM	#2
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	Hi, it seems a composite stiletto probably from 1700 ,the blade probably from a german small sword . But not a bad piece .Nice stiletto.

9th November 2011, 09:31 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Good acquisition this time, Brian . Nice handle, surely silver and certainly ivory... and nice blade too

9th November 2011, 10:04 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Brian, Most attractive dagger! and you profoundly underestimate yourself my friend. We all have made many misteakes in our collecting adventures, and over the years you have learned along with the rest of us. Clearly you are becoming more discerning, and as always bold in your acquisitions. I think it is important to note here that the term 'composite' or remounted is not necessarily a signal of doom in the integrity of a weapon. Edged weapons were often, if not even typically, refurbished in thier working lives, some through many generations. Heirloom blades as well were often mounted in later style hilts in league with current fashion or sometimes even military regulation style hilts. It was not at all uncommon for military officers to mount heirloom or 'trophy' blades in thier swords. It is difficult to find rapiers that have not been refurbished in thier working lives thus becoming 'composite'. The stiletto was an antiquated weapon by the time which seems most likely for this dagger, but remained desirable in the sense of classical heritage and tradition for members of the gentry and individuals of significant status. The quality and neoclassic styling suggests mid 18th century to latter, as seen by the acanthus like pommel and bolster; similated entwined turks head in silver wire with gadrooned silver bands over ivory. The blade seems 18th century and the style of engraving and motif aligns with similar on 18th century smallsword and court type swords as well as its general form, as noted by Berber. Much as in the manner of many dirks and certainly other edged weapons, blades were typically 'recycled' if broken or damaged into these smaller weapons, or as mentioned may have been refurbished from heirloom blades. That may well be the case here, regardless, it is a most attractive item! Well done Brian, All the best, Jim

10th November 2011, 05:15 AM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	I agree with Fernando and Jim. VERY nice find. Just goes to show that things come right eventually. Stu

10th November 2011, 09:19 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	We all learn together Brian! and as Fernando notes, you are by absolutely no means alone there....we all have stories big time!!!

13th November 2011, 02:11 PM	#9
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	This kind of dagger was favoured by seamen of Anglo-America at the age of sail. I think that the not-so-perfect work utilizing scattered parts of high quality usually stands for self-made composite daggers of that period, the pommel looks to be taken off Georgian flatware. The braided silver wire in "ocean mat" pattern was a popular marine motif. Similar daggers can be seen in Peterson's American Knives and Daggers and Fighting Knives of the Western World; Neumann's Swords & Blades of the American Revolution.

14th November 2011, 04:43 AM	#10
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Thank you for the additional information. Best, Brian