Interesting Kris for comments

[Bill M]

Overall length 22"
Blade Length 17.5"

Horn handle with ivory or tricadna shell cap. Looks more like tricadna

I am very curious about this piece and would welcome comments.

[Ferguson]

Absolutely stunning. Simply elegant. Can't offer any other insights. Bill, you've got the best toys! The pattern in the blade is superb.

Steve

Edit, Oh one thing. The baca baca looks like a replacement made from sheet brass.

[David]

I dare say that looks like a pamored piece ya got there Bill. It would be interesting to see what some warangan would do for it.
It also has rather well formed "sogakan" and a very Indonesian "sekar kacang". Given all these factors i am inclined to suggest that this is not a Moro kris, but an Indo one, or at least made by an Indo smith who may have relocated.
We might have to move this one to the keris forum.

[David]

Oh, did i say, that's sweet!?

[Bill M]

I am quite curious about it. Indo / Moro?

[carlos]

BEAUTIFUL KRIS!! IS FROM BORNEO?

CONGRATULATIONS FOR THIS PIECE
CARLOS

[Bill]

Very interesting kris, I don't recall seeing a straight blade "18thC" before. The blade tip seems to be in-between a stabbing & slashing sword. From what I can recall all the "18thC", I have seen, have a more defined point. Nice example of crossover from keris to kris. As far as "Indo smith who may have relocated", I think this kris preceeds the Philippine kris & a "relocated" smith wouldn't just start making a "kris" just because he is on, what is now, Philippine soil. Simular pattern to a wavy kris RSword & myself have posted before.

[Lew]

I think this center kris of mine is late 18th or early 19th century it exhibits a narrow blade and a cruder ganja but it seems more Moro than Bill's.



Lew

[kai]

Hello Bill,

I'm pretty sure this is an ethnic Malay example - Riau, Straits or even eastern Sumatra.

I wouldn't rule out Borneo/Brunei but most examples collected from Borneo seem to have originated from Sulu (or being crafted in the same style) with some trade blades from Mindanao thrown in the mix. Also, I don't recall any pamor blade from Borneo nor Moro provenance, especially not this pamor (even welded in low contrast).

The gangya configuration is keris-like and doesn't fit into Cato's categories. So, all bets are off on this piece... However, the carving of the blade is really nicely done and I'd guess it has some real age. I'm less convinced of the fittings, especially the clamp might be a quite recent replacement.

BTW, it's easy to tell ivory from giant clam shell with the help of a reasonable magnifying glass - the latter is quite porous and shows different growth rings.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Originally Posted by Bill

I don't recall seeing a straight blade "18thC" before.

I have a possible contender which might be from Sulu. Not yet in a publishable condition though...

BTW, could you please post a close-up of your piece, Lew? I agree that this also seems to be Moro.

Nice example of crossover from keris to kris. As far as "Indo smith who may have relocated", I think this kris preceeds the Philippine kris & a "relocated" smith wouldn't just start making a "kris" just because he is on, what is now, Philippine soil.

I think you have it backwards, kinda: While the kris best known from the Moro evolved from Malay/Indonesian keris, any extant pieces whose construction speaks for an origin in Malaysia or Indonesia seem to be younger than the oldest Moro kris. I'd postulate that these were crafted after (extensive and well established) contact with Moro traders and most likely inspired by Moro trade blades.

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Yeah Bill (Marsh), this blade seems to exhibit far too many Indo/Malay keris features to be a Moro kris. There is even a very well developed (and extented) tikel alis. The gonjo, as Kai already stated, is much more an Indo than a Moro form. And without a good staining i wouldn't even be so sure that the pamor is a low contrast material (i really think you should stain it Bill ).
Bill (the other one), i am with Kai and i don't believe this keris necessarily pre-dates the Moro kris. No, a relocated Indo/Malay smith wouldn't "just start making a "kris" because he is on Philippine soil". He would be asked to make one because that is his skill. If indeed this blade was made in Moroland and is old enough, it could be that it still exhibits Malay/Indo traits because it is transitional from Indo to Moro need. Still, if i were a betting man i would wager this blade was made in Indonesian (Sumatra or Sulawesi) early on, but still after the introduction of Moroland kris.
Kai, you may still be right about Riau or the Straits, but this type of pamor looks more like what i would associate with Celebes or Sumatra.

[Bill]

[QUOTE=kai]



I think you have it backwards, kinda: While the kris best known from the Moro evolved from Malay/Indonesian keris, any extant pieces whose construction speaks for an origin in Malaysia or Indonesia seem to be younger than the oldest Moro kris. I'd postulate that these were crafted after (extensive and well established) contact with Moro traders and most likely inspired by Moro trade blades.

Hi Kai, We know the "18thC" started out with round tangs & was for stabbing. I think the earliest "kris" was a "18C", if so, who made it. I'll stick with the Bugis as the most likely suspects. Just can't believe the "18thC" was a "starter" edition.

[David]

Originally Posted by Bill

Hi Kai, We know the "18thC" started out with round tangs & was for stabbing. I think the earliest "kris" was a "18C", if so, who made it. I'll stick with the Bugis as the most likely suspects. Just can't believe the "18thC" was a "starter" edition.

I didn't know this. Do ALL of the earliest "18thC"s have round tangs for sure, or is this an assumption. I don't own any of these "archaic" style kris so i don't know from my own experience. I am also not sure that calling them "18thC" kris is in our best interest since i think some of these are probably a little older than that.
I know we have been around this block before, but i do find it difficult to accept these "archaic" kris as Bugis since the blade form doesn't really resemble the bugis style of keris very much. I am also confused as to why you can't believe that these keris could possible be a "starter edition".

[kai]

Hello David,

There is even a very well developed (and extented) tikel alis.

Yeah, that one caught my eye, too.
That's also present on the archaic Moro kris, however, the execution is different...

And without a good staining i wouldn't even be so sure that the pamor is a low contrast material (i really think you should stain it Bill ).

I was referring to Moro kris which are usually done in low contrast. This piece seems to be regular (if Malay/Bugis) pamor though. An etch may be enough to bring out the pattern but some warangan may also be interesting.

Kai, you may still be right about Riau or the Straits, but this type of pamor looks more like what i would associate with Celebes or Sumatra.

Yes, it's pretty common with keris blades from Palembang and places of strong Bugis influence. I'd like to hear from our Singapore/Malay members if the pamor could help in narrowing things down!

Regards,
Kai

[RSWORD]

While I am not as familiar with the keris construction, this blade has a central core of mechanical twistcore sandwiched with nice lamellar cheeks. I have seen this construction in a few pieces(like the one I use to have that Bill/Chicago now has) and I have also seen a number of Moro pieces with well defined chiseling at the forte as in this example. What I have not seen as much is the sandwich type of construction in keris but as I mentioned I am not as familiar with them. My vote is that it is a Moro blade.

[kai]

Hello Bill,

We know the "18thC" started out with round tangs & was for stabbing.

Ethnic Malay keris sundang also (often?) have a round pesi, even the large examples AFAIK.

I think the earliest "kris" was a "18C", if so, who made it. I'll stick with the Bugis as the most likely suspects. Just can't believe the "18thC" was a "starter" edition.

I've seen worse starter editions, for sure!

While it is tempting to single out the Bugis which certainly had a lot of contact with the Tausug (for better or worse ), I'm a bit weary with this hypothesis due to the lack of actual keris sundang (archaic, old and even not so old exmples...) with sound provenance from that region (or even from all over Sulawesi)!

For example, I think it will be hard to completely diss the northern link: Malaya - Brunei - Sulu. We also have to keep in mind that extensive trade contacts had been established for millennia throughout SE Asia. I think there are early sources that at least the Tausug were very active seafarers from early on. So, regardless wether the rulers happened to be in good terms or were enemies, it seems safe to assume that the Moro had close contact with about any other major player in the region and beyond.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Rick,

While I am not as familiar with the keris construction, this blade has a central core of mechanical twistcore sandwiched with nice lamellar cheeks.

That's another point I was going to bring up. The twist core already present in archaic Moro kris is quite different (from 2 bars, only in the middle of the blade) from this example (which is basically identical with the classic keris blade construction).

I have also seen a number of Moro pieces with well defined chiseling at the forte as in this example.

We're not talking about the nice chiseling per se but rather the style in which it's executed - different from what I've seen in Moro kris...

Regards,
Kai

[Bill]

Originally Posted by David

I didn't know this. Do ALL of the earliest "18thC"s have round tangs for sure, or is this an assumption. I don't own any of these "archaic" style kris so i don't know from my own experience. I am also not sure that calling them "18thC" kris is in our best interest since i think some of these are probably a little older than that.
I know we have been around this block before, but i do find it difficult to accept these "archaic" kris as Bugis since the blade form doesn't really resemble the bugis style of keris very much. I am also confused as to why you can't believe that these keris could possible be a "starter edition".

I have 2 "18thC". Neither one,have I removed the hilt. One I'm sure has a keris sized round tang. The other, I can get a cleaning pick in between the blade & hilt & it appears to have a robust oval tang. Federico has posted one with a robust round tang & Lee has posted one with a retangular one. Strikes me that someone else once posted one with a retangular tang or at least confirmed it once. Only use "18thC" because Cato did, I think they are quite a bit older then that. There is enough variation to suggest many smiths made them for a extended period of time. That's the main problem in Philippine origin. They copied the style but never perfected it, don't think they would lose the knowledge. RSword: Didn't you once have a Bugis keris with the same pattern of the kris you sold me?

[David]

Originally Posted by Bill

They copied the style but never perfected it, don't think they would lose the knowledge.

Why do you think they lost the knowledge? IMO they chose not to perfect the style of the "archaic" stabbing blade. Rather they moved on to develop it into a larger, broader slashing weapon which they believed (as do i) to be a more effective fighting tool. Given the choice in battle i would certainly choose the larger slashing blade in an instant.
Hi Rick. I have to agree with Kai. It is not the level of execution in the chiselling, but the style in which the work is done which leads me to believe this is not Moro work. The Moro were certainly capable of fine quality chiselling. Also as Kai points out, this is not the twisted core that we are familar with seeing in some Moro keris. The constuction of this keris looks the same as in pamored Indo/Malay varieties.

[RSWORD]

Thanks for the clarification of what you guys are seeing in the style of work at the forte. I still recall seeing Moro blades of similar construct. I am hoping some of the Moro guys will chime in. It is an interesting piece all around. I still want to point out that this blade has a central core of mechanical damascus, you can see the lines on each side, with the edges welded on. This seems more Moro in nature. Do you often find keris with a central plate with the edges welded on? Bill, I have had a few Bugis keris over the years and I don't remember a pattern exactly like this one. As I recall, they did tend to have a nice pattern down the central portion of the blade, and as I recall somewhat similar to the blade in question, but the big difference was that it was not a central core with edges welded on. It was a single blade, not of tripartite construction. Now, the handle doesn't seem terribly Moro on this piece but the scabbard to my eye looks more Moro than Malay. So, it seems to have characteristics of several cultures so is it a type of missing link? I don't know.

[David]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Thanks for the clarification of what you guys are seeing in the style of work at the forte. I still recall seeing Moro blades of similar construct.

Rick, just for further clarification it is not the construct we are pointing out, but very particular stylistic differences in that construct. In other words, all the parts would be the same, it is just the way in which it is executed that is different. This blade has a very specific Indo style to the "elephant head", the tikel alis, the gonjo, the sogokan and greneng. I have also seen all of these features on Moro kris, but never execute in this very Indo manner before. You might be right about the twisted core, but there is clearly pamor at the edges as well (look by the greneng above the gonjo). I can't recall ever seeing that on a Moro keris, though one might exist out there. But the fact that all of these very Indo styles exist on a single blade leads me to believe that it was made by an Indonesian hand.

[Bill]

David: I think the forms of warfare varied quite a bit from Sulawesi & Moroland. As I already posted, Bill M's kris is unusual in the staight blade & x-over tip. I'm sure their must be keris that have a simular tip, but I can't recall any. The Moro were certainly capabal of fine chissel and file work but the question is when? Keep in mind, Bugis had 3 distinct groups: royalty, warriors, workers & slaves. Above all they were most successfull because of the mixture of farmers/miners & the warriors to protect them from being invaded, pre western period. The smiths for the most part made tools. All men carried a keris & there was likely a lot of average keris makers. I suspect the warrior class had smiths that catered to their needs. The construction method not being of your concern to origin, I agree. While Ricks old sword has a twisted core & is the only one I have; I do have several Philippine kris with a sandwiched core, as well, a sandwiched pamored Bugis keris. As far as the features you describe as Indonesian workmanship, I'm kind of at a loss, as those are the features of the "18thC" with the exception that the sogokan out-line is for a straight blade. As I have stated before, my opinion is that the "18thC" was for dispatching wounded men & removing their heads; Bill M's sword seems to be moving towards a slashing sword, more of a primary weapon.

[kai]

Hello Rick,

I still want to point out that this blade has a central core of mechanical damascus, you can see the lines on each side, with the edges welded on. This seems more Moro in nature. Do you often find keris with a central plate with the edges welded on? Bill, I have had a few Bugis keris over the years and I don't remember a pattern exactly like this one. As I recall, they did tend to have a nice pattern down the central portion of the blade, and as I recall somewhat similar to the blade in question, but the big difference was that it was not a central core with edges welded on. It was a single blade, not of tripartite construction.

I'm pretty sure this kris/keris sundang is of 3-layered construction (San Mai) as are almost all Moro kris and keris...

This pamor pattern is common on keris Bugis - of course, the "random" types are more numerous.

Now, the handle doesn't seem terribly Moro on this piece but the scabbard to my eye looks more Moro than Malay. So, it seems to have characteristics of several cultures so is it a type of missing link?

I'd stipulate that the scabbard isn't typical for Malay keris sundang. The brass coils seem to be off and may possibly have been added more recently. Bill, any provenance for this piece?

I don't think the blade - much less the fittings - are old enough to be even close to a missing link. Much more likely that the blade travelled a bit through the archipelago before ending up with Bill. BTW, I don't want to sound too critical: I do like this piece!

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Bill,

David: I think the forms of warfare varied quite a bit from Sulawesi & Moroland.

Different between them? Please explain!

As I have stated before, my opinion is that the "18thC" was for dispatching wounded men & removing their heads;

I don't see how the latter is supposed to have worked - seems akward if you're used to blades of the klewang family (Kampilan, Mandau, etc.) and Panabas.

Bill M's sword seems to be moving towards a slashing sword, more of a primary weapon.

I believe that you can stab just fine with it and with a 17.5" blade it doesn't seem to be a primary battlefield/raiding party weapon either.

Regards,
Kai

[Bill]

[QUOTE=kai]Hello Bill,


"Different between them? Please explain!"
Bugis used blowguns with poisoned darts until firearms. They practised definitive warfare, always removing the head. As experianced tool makers it seems logical they would develop a blade that would dispatch & behead. I've posted a blade in the past where one of the one curve shows continuous use. The Moro charged their opponents.

"I don't see how the latter is supposed to have worked - seems akward if you're used to blades of the klewang family (Kampilan, Mandau, etc.) and Panabas."
How did the Bugis finish off a man dazed by a poison dart and remove their head? I've posted in the past a referance by early Portuguese that described the Burgis warrior as carrying a sword just for that task; although there is no description of the sword itself.

"I believe that you can stab just fine with it and with a 17.5" blade it doesn't seem to be a primary battlefield/raiding party weapon either."
I agree Bill M's sword would not be the primary battlefield/raiding party weapon of the typical warrior. Again we get into the when and where. Clearly the sword is no longer just a stabbing weapon as the keris is. It seems the older the "18thC" the less defined the point. The center example Lew posts is what I believe the "18thC" is morphing into, a slashing sword. I have a feeling that Bill M's sword is older then you think. One needs to concentrate on the blade & disregard the fittings and scabbard. It would be interesting to know what type of tang it has.

[kino]

Good catch Bill!
Cost a pretty penny, though!

[David]

Originally Posted by Bill

As far as the features you describe as Indonesian workmanship, I'm kind of at a loss, as those are the features of the "18thC" with the exception that the sogokan out-line is for a straight blade. As I have stated before, my opinion is that the "18thC" was for dispatching wounded men & removing their heads;

I do see what you mean here Bill. I went back to Cato a took another look at the features of the "archaic" kris. The sogokan do seem similar to Bill's example, though i still think the "elephant head" looks closer to an Indo sekar kecang than to anything Moro. I still have yet to see a Moro kris with this type of pamor....but isn't it your theory that these "archaic" kris are of Indonesian origin. I'm not sure why you are arguing my assessment then since it tends to prove your argument.
As for these archaic keris having the specific purpose you describe, you lose me there. First off, weren't these "archaic" kris collected from a Moro provenence (regardless of their actual origin)? Did the Moro use blowguns and then dispatch their enemies and take their heads? Or are you saying that these "archaic" kris were actually used by the Bugis for their style of warfare, but somehow all ended up in the Philippines where they were collected?
Anyway, i do not see these early kris as being designed to be very effective for removing heads. Take a good look at the Dayak mandau for a blade that is well designed for that purpose.

[kai]

Hello Bill,

Bugis used blowguns with poisoned darts until firearms. They practised definitive warfare, always removing the head.

Ok, let's assume this really is a major difference although I'm not sure you're comparing both ethnic groups at the same period. (AFAIK, most folks throughout the archipelago tend to make sure that their enemies won't get back to them later on. While there are certainly several options to accomplish this, beheading is a pretty sure way... ;o)

As experianced tool makers it seems logical they would develop a blade that would dispatch & behead.

Well, in warfare you often don't have time nor do you wan't to take unneccessary risks. I'd assume that the Dyaks would have copied any superior tool for removing heads since they really prized the heads. And a spear is much safer for poking seemingly dead bodies.

I've posted a blade in the past where one of the one curve shows continuous use.

Yes, I remember your kris but I have to admit that the visible signs of use didn't convinced me that they resulted from taking heads...

How did the Bugis finish off a man dazed by a poison dart and remove their head? I've posted in the past a referance by early Portuguese that described the Burgis warrior as carrying a sword just for that task; although there is no description of the sword itself.

Yeah, but where are the artifacts from early museum collections? It's not that the European exploiters never met the Bugis up close and personal...

I have a feeling that Bill M's sword is older then you think. One needs to concentrate on the blade & disregard the fittings and scabbard.

Sure, I am focusing on the blade. It would be important to know how long it has been kept in western collections since this heavily influences preservation of the blade.

If coming out of Indonesia during the last 60 years, this pamor blade would be very well preserved if it's a 19th century piece (which I'd guess - maybe 1850 +/- 100 years).

It would be interesting to know what type of tang it has.

Yes, yes, yes! Bill (M), any chance that you let Jose craft a nice clamp for this beauty and let him have a peek at the tang while he's at it?

Regards,
Kai

[Bill M]

Hi Kai and others. I have been really enjoying this thread.

I have a few observations. I don't see this being a beheading sword, the blade is light but very well-balanced. I would think it would be a bit of work to quickly cut off a head.

I would also like to see the tang and have a better clamp, but I am concerned about the handle. It already has a crack, and I am concerned the trauma of removing it would break it, though I could be wrong. It is also on very tight, so my usual method of heating the blade would probably crack the handle.

I know the handle is wrong, but do not know what would be better? So replacing this handle might be a problem. If we could arrive at a consensus of what an appropriate handle should look like, maybe I could get a right one made(?)

Could we get some better answers if I clean and stain?

I have one other picture that may provide another clue. The metal that usually goes up into the hilt seems to come out just above the ferrule.

[kai]

Hello Bill,

I would also like to see the tang and have a better clamp, but I am concerned about the handle. It already has a crack, and I am concerned the trauma of removing it would break it, though I could be wrong. It is also on very tight, so my usual method of heating the blade would probably crack the handle.

Removing the hilt by carefully heating the blade should be possible without damage. Horn hilts like this one almost always come with hairline cracks due to age and, especially, due to storage in low humidity. More often than not, this is not a major issue if one is not living in a very low humidity climate and can avoid humidity and temperature fluctuations. Actually, I'd expect any cracks to become smaller in Bill's controlled environment...

I know the handle is wrong, but do not know what would be better? So replacing this handle might be a problem. If we could arrive at a consensus of what an appropriate handle should look like, maybe I could get a right one made(?)

I'm not positive that the hilt really is wrong: Kris fitted by Malays seem to have non-standard hilts fairly often. And this one is certainly not a cheap, hurried replacement for selling this piece to unsuspecting travellers. Many of these kris also don't have clamps (or rather poor ones as in this case) but I think this blade really calls for one, and possibly a better one at that.

Could we get some better answers if I clean and stain?

I'm afraid that we're mostly limited by missing data/knowledge and possibly won't get more answers. However, if I were you, I'd at least do a vinegar stain as suitable for Moro kris. If other, more experienced folks don't come up with with more info on a likely origin, I'd tempted to try warangan on this one and to let the result decide wether to leave it on...

I have one other picture that may provide another clue. The metal that usually goes up into the hilt seems to come out just above the ferrule.

Too much gunk but it does seem to be a fairly stout tang, isn't it?

Regards,
Kai