English Sword with Arabic Inscription

mykeris · 18th February 2005, 09:15 AM

It would be great if someone could comment on this sword. Is it a fencing sword. Thanks in advance.

Rich · 18th February 2005, 11:47 AM

I can't read Arabic, so can't comment on that aspect,
but I would call it a "small sword", most likely for
formal occasions. Style popular in the 1700 to early
1800's. Just a guess though.

Rich

mykeris · 18th February 2005, 12:02 PM

Thanks Rich.

mykeris · 18th February 2005, 12:13 PM

Rich, Not small sword. quite long. 84cm from hilt to blade end. No scabbard.

tom hyle · 18th February 2005, 01:07 PM

Smallsword is not a sword that is small; it is a technical term for a certain particularly evolved (or decadent, depending on your viewpoint) form of rapier (ie sword-hilted spear). The term seems to have come about as a counterpoint to terms like greatsword, longsword, broadsword. This is a smallsword, and without cross-checking my ruler for metric conversion, lenth sounds about typical (26 to 30+ inch blades). The cross-section of the blade may be of some interest, as there is a variety, including but not limitted to, hollow-triangular, flattened diamond, lenticular section, midribbed, etc. and often changes over the length of the weapon. The new forum doesn't let you reference thread pics while replying (just sayin'....), but it seems to me the ricassoe is small, perhaps even vestigial, and this seems like a late feature. This is exactly a fencing sword, but it is not a sport fencing sword; it is a deadly weapon, probably with a spring-tempered blade. The term fencing technically applies to defending the self, so I suppose any sword meant for parrying is a fencing sword, but this is the one of common usage; intended to be usable as a sole self-defence, though in practice often taught and used with a variety of mostly impromptu shields (cloak, lantern, dagger, stool, stick......). Weapons of this sort were often an item of fancy/formal dress, but were also worn for self-defence(or robbery, for that matter....) and used in duels. They were not considered ideal for a battlefield sword, but often found their way there at the sides of people who owned only one sword (and most owned none), or knew/preferred only the smallsword, or officers who may have used it as a pointer to direct their men, more than as a weapon. Most battlefield killing in European wars was done with shot and bullet by that time; statistics on sword and bayonet wounds are often very low.

tom hyle · 18th February 2005, 01:16 PM

Yeah, extremely vestigial (looks essentiall unusable in "true" wrapped finger fashion, though a finger might be rested upon it; there are, contrary to what many fencing masters teach, a variety of ways of holding smallswords); the clad ricassoe within the shell guard is tiny; 1800-1830 or so? The blade looks markedly similar to that on one of the final (so far...) evolutions of rapier; the lodge sword; a thin, narrow blade of lenticular or flattened-diamond section; very similar in the tip to older smallswords, but perhaps lacking the fortitude at the base to make one entirely comfortable in parrying other, heavier swords (such as sabres/broadswords). Your example is getting toward the vestigial stages of the weapon, though it's still probablywell suited for dueling against a similar sword, and is certainly capable of a very deadly thrust if sharp, though it looks to lack the stiffness of its ancestors.
Is that the foreign writing on the sheild? I wonder about the crescent on the shell; such Muslim symbolism is associated (I don't really know why) with some of the lodges and "societies"; this may actually be an early, transitional lodge sword.

wolviex · 18th February 2005, 03:54 PM

Small-swords of this kind were very popular through the whole 19th century in almost every European country. This one has one very characteristic feature - this are quillons. Most of the smallsword of this time are with one short quillon (sometimes straight, sometiems curved) while the second one is just a knuckle-guard. In your piece we've got two shord quillons and a knuckle-guard. I have seen only two small-sword with similarity to yours. First one was from France, second from Belgium - both from the end of the 19th century. It doesn't seems to me that one of yours is older. There is some dubitancy about your small-sword - but if you could post more photos. What is the blade, I can barely see there is some ornament! Of what material the handle is made - bronze?, brass?, cooper? - on this photos it looks like it could be cast from one of these alloys. This coat-of-arms looks made rather carelessly - it's not good, while it was in whole Europe (or almost whole Europe) important emblem for noblemen. Where from do you know it's English sword ? - I know - too many questions, but we all here need as much concrete informations as it's only possible, to be able comment anything.

Best regards

ariel · 18th February 2005, 07:51 PM

You mean the squiggles on the chevron (or whatever this diagonal strip is called)?
I must be going blind, but I do not see any Arabic lettering there.

wolviex · 18th February 2005, 11:48 PM

And yes - there were small-swords with such quillons used in England. But there are still questions...

mykeris · 19th February 2005, 12:37 AM

Thanks. I `ll post more photos of this sword.

Justin · 19th February 2005, 02:08 AM

Nice smallsword,I have always loved these swords, it looks to be pretty nice.I was surfing around on the net and found this check out the second smallsword on this page:

http://home.comcast.net/~jtcrosby/Swords2.html

mykeris · 19th February 2005, 04:04 AM

Perhaps, these pictures would help.

wolviex · 19th February 2005, 10:54 AM

J.R. GAUNT & SON LIMITED LATE EDWARD THURKLE LONDON & BIRMINGHAM - they produced many military swords during the reign of Edward VII (1901-1910), so as I said before, it's the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th c.

Radu Transylvanicus · 19th February 2005, 02:43 PM

I see a combination of British with Turkish (crescent moon and the Islamic* caligraphy) while the at the time of WWI the smallswords were long gone as real use, it implies a ceremonial/parade perhaps even a fraternal perspective.
Anywhere from the Crimeean War 1854-1856 to post WWI Kemal Ataturk Euro-reforms, interactions have existed in between the two powers.

*(yes, I did use the descriptive word ,, Islamic ,, as I believe using it at times just like ,, Indo-Persian,, it aint wrong being so vague)

Sakhti777 · 22nd February 2005, 09:08 AM

Mykeris,
I got very strong feeling, this sword belonged the Malay world , let me guess, the Federated Malay States during British rule over Malaya or if not earlier. It is unfortunate I could not see clearly the Islamic incription on the emblem , but I guess this emblem most probably representing one of the older states of the Malay Peninsular at that moment. May be Kelantan or Perak. If this is so, you must be damn lucky owning this sword that has some history in it.However, I am a bit curious regarding the writings or forms forged onthe blade, could be better if sword specialist from the English world authenticate the two animal forms on the blade. If these forms proven English, most likely this sword was custom made and presented by the British government to the owner residing in the Malay peninsular. Very interesting sword that tells history.

tom hyle · 22nd February 2005, 09:49 AM

Those patterns on the blade are etched. The animals are hard to specify; lions?

mykeris · 22nd February 2005, 11:12 AM

TQ Tom and other forumites, thanks to Sakti for your opinion. Yes Tom, motivs are Lions. BTW, was Lion associated with the West especially England or British government during 1900s? Or could it be a self-made emblem with all those markings?

18th February 2005, 09:15 AM	#1
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	English Sword with Arabic Inscription It would be great if someone could comment on this sword. Is it a fencing sword. Thanks in advance. Attached Images

18th February 2005, 12:02 PM	#3
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	Thanks Rich. Last edited by mykeris; 18th February 2005 at 12:15 PM.

18th February 2005, 12:13 PM	#4
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	Rich, Not small sword. quite long. 84cm from hilt to blade end. No scabbard. Attached Images Last edited by mykeris; 18th February 2005 at 12:42 PM.

18th February 2005, 01:16 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yeah, extremely vestigial (looks essentiall unusable in "true" wrapped finger fashion, though a finger might be rested upon it; there are, contrary to what many fencing masters teach, a variety of ways of holding smallswords); the clad ricassoe within the shell guard is tiny; 1800-1830 or so? The blade looks markedly similar to that on one of the final (so far...) evolutions of rapier; the lodge sword; a thin, narrow blade of lenticular or flattened-diamond section; very similar in the tip to older smallswords, but perhaps lacking the fortitude at the base to make one entirely comfortable in parrying other, heavier swords (such as sabres/broadswords). Your example is getting toward the vestigial stages of the weapon, though it's still probablywell suited for dueling against a similar sword, and is certainly capable of a very deadly thrust if sharp, though it looks to lack the stiffness of its ancestors. Is that the foreign writing on the sheild? I wonder about the crescent on the shell; such Muslim symbolism is associated (I don't really know why) with some of the lodges and "societies"; this may actually be an early, transitional lodge sword. Last edited by tom hyle; 18th February 2005 at 02:49 PM.

19th February 2005, 04:04 AM	#12
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	Perhaps, these pictures would help. Attached Images

18th February 2005, 11:47 AM	#2
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	I can't read Arabic, so can't comment on that aspect, but I would call it a "small sword", most likely for formal occasions. Style popular in the 1700 to early 1800's. Just a guess though. Rich

18th February 2005, 01:07 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Smallsword is not a sword that is small; it is a technical term for a certain particularly evolved (or decadent, depending on your viewpoint) form of rapier (ie sword-hilted spear). The term seems to have come about as a counterpoint to terms like greatsword, longsword, broadsword. This is a smallsword, and without cross-checking my ruler for metric conversion, lenth sounds about typical (26 to 30+ inch blades). The cross-section of the blade may be of some interest, as there is a variety, including but not limitted to, hollow-triangular, flattened diamond, lenticular section, midribbed, etc. and often changes over the length of the weapon. The new forum doesn't let you reference thread pics while replying (just sayin'....), but it seems to me the ricassoe is small, perhaps even vestigial, and this seems like a late feature. This is exactly a fencing sword, but it is not a sport fencing sword; it is a deadly weapon, probably with a spring-tempered blade. The term fencing technically applies to defending the self, so I suppose any sword meant for parrying is a fencing sword, but this is the one of common usage; intended to be usable as a sole self-defence, though in practice often taught and used with a variety of mostly impromptu shields (cloak, lantern, dagger, stool, stick......). Weapons of this sort were often an item of fancy/formal dress, but were also worn for self-defence(or robbery, for that matter....) and used in duels. They were not considered ideal for a battlefield sword, but often found their way there at the sides of people who owned only one sword (and most owned none), or knew/preferred only the smallsword, or officers who may have used it as a pointer to direct their men, more than as a weapon. Most battlefield killing in European wars was done with shot and bullet by that time; statistics on sword and bayonet wounds are often very low.

18th February 2005, 03:54 PM	#7
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Small-swords of this kind were very popular through the whole 19th century in almost every European country. This one has one very characteristic feature - this are quillons. Most of the smallsword of this time are with one short quillon (sometimes straight, sometiems curved) while the second one is just a knuckle-guard. In your piece we've got two shord quillons and a knuckle-guard. I have seen only two small-sword with similarity to yours. First one was from France, second from Belgium - both from the end of the 19th century. It doesn't seems to me that one of yours is older. There is some dubitancy about your small-sword - but if you could post more photos. What is the blade, I can barely see there is some ornament! Of what material the handle is made - bronze?, brass?, cooper? - on this photos it looks like it could be cast from one of these alloys. This coat-of-arms looks made rather carelessly - it's not good, while it was in whole Europe (or almost whole Europe) important emblem for noblemen. Where from do you know it's English sword ? - I know - too many questions, but we all here need as much concrete informations as it's only possible, to be able comment anything. Best regards

18th February 2005, 07:51 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You mean the squiggles on the chevron (or whatever this diagonal strip is called)? I must be going blind, but I do not see any Arabic lettering there.

18th February 2005, 11:48 PM	#9
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	And yes - there were small-swords with such quillons used in England. But there are still questions...

19th February 2005, 12:37 AM	#10
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	Thanks. I `ll post more photos of this sword.

19th February 2005, 02:08 AM	#11
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Nice smallsword,I have always loved these swords, it looks to be pretty nice.I was surfing around on the net and found this check out the second smallsword on this page: http://home.comcast.net/~jtcrosby/Swords2.html

19th February 2005, 10:54 AM	#13
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	J.R. GAUNT & SON LIMITED LATE EDWARD THURKLE LONDON & BIRMINGHAM - they produced many military swords during the reign of Edward VII (1901-1910), so as I said before, it's the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th c.

19th February 2005, 02:43 PM	#14
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	I see a combination of British with Turkish (crescent moon and the Islamic* caligraphy) while the at the time of WWI the smallswords were long gone as real use, it implies a ceremonial/parade perhaps even a fraternal perspective. Anywhere from the Crimeean War 1854-1856 to post WWI Kemal Ataturk Euro-reforms, interactions have existed in between the two powers. *(yes, I did use the descriptive word ,, Islamic ,, as I believe using it at times just like ,, Indo-Persian,, it aint wrong being so vague)

22nd February 2005, 09:08 AM	#15
Sakhti777 Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Penang Posts: 14	Historical sword??? Mykeris, I got very strong feeling, this sword belonged the Malay world , let me guess, the Federated Malay States during British rule over Malaya or if not earlier. It is unfortunate I could not see clearly the Islamic incription on the emblem , but I guess this emblem most probably representing one of the older states of the Malay Peninsular at that moment. May be Kelantan or Perak. If this is so, you must be damn lucky owning this sword that has some history in it.However, I am a bit curious regarding the writings or forms forged onthe blade, could be better if sword specialist from the English world authenticate the two animal forms on the blade. If these forms proven English, most likely this sword was custom made and presented by the British government to the owner residing in the Malay peninsular. Very interesting sword that tells history.

22nd February 2005, 09:49 AM	#16
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Those patterns on the blade are etched. The animals are hard to specify; lions?

22nd February 2005, 11:12 AM	#17
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	TQ Tom and other forumites, thanks to Sakti for your opinion. Yes Tom, motivs are Lions. BTW, was Lion associated with the West especially England or British government during 1900s? Or could it be a self-made emblem with all those markings?