Relic of a Javanese kriss whith original warangka

Athanase · 27th August 2018, 10:58 PM

Hello,

Here is a kriss I like a lot despite the ghostly state of his blade.
Lengh blade : 34cm Dapur : Cerita?
I had seen an instructive explanation of this type of warangka in Mr. Maisey's Catalog No. 74 (?). Unfortunately I made the mistake of not copying the text and I can't find this page.
The brass pendok seems to have been added later on the scabbard with a big bunch of glue, it seems to replace an old pendok or hide a wood too damaged.
The blade has a pamor but it is not determinable because covered with a layer of black wax.
The brass mendak is so damaged that it has almost disappeared.
The pretty bone handle lets guess a character under the tracery.

Any information on this type of sheath and handle is welcome.

Rafngard · 28th August 2018, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athanase

I had seen an instructive explanation of this type of warangka in Mr. Maisey's Catalog No. 74 (?). Unfortunately I made the mistake of not copying the text and I can't find this page.

Hello,

I think you are referring to a Javanese keris patrem, with a wrongko in the Wulan Tumanggal form, and a gandar with red kemalo, from catalog # 74, which now lives with me. :-)

Mr. Maisey also mentioned that "this wrongko form has not been made in Java for a very long time, according to Harsrinuksmo (Ensiklopedi Keris) it has not been made since the end of the Kartosuro era (1680-1745)."

I hope this helps.

Thanks,
Leif

Jean · 28th August 2018, 08:48 AM

The hilt is in putrasatu style from East Java, see a rather similar specimen.
Regards

Athanase · 28th August 2018, 10:13 AM

Thank you for your help.

Jean · 28th August 2018, 05:00 PM

The gambar tumanggal of Athanase's kris is very nice and peculiar because of the longitudinal ridge on both sides but I doubt that it dates from the Kartasura period or before....
Regards

David · 28th August 2018, 06:18 PM

Well, i don't think that it is too important whether or not this wrongko was made during the Mataram/Kartosuro period or not, it is still a nice example of a fairly rare Javanese keris sheath and certainly worthy of collection just for this dress alone. The hilt is also pretty nice. I agree with Jean though that it is unlikely that the dress dates back as far as the 18th century, though it would not be impossible i suppose.
The blade, however, well may. It is a pity that it has undergone so much blade erosion. If it were mine i might find a decent mendak just to return some dignity to the ensemble.

Jean · 28th August 2018, 07:35 PM

I am always hesitant to assess such a damaged blade, is it a precious but worn-out/ neglected pusaka or just worthless rubbish? In Europe the collectors tend to follow the second alternative, for instance I had little success in trying to sell these 2 very old krisses....
In the case of Athanase's kris, it is a pity that the blade be in such a poor condition indeed as it was certainly a very good piece originally. I would certainly have bought the kris just for the dress and hilt. A good way to re-use the blade would be to make a new blade partly from it for keeping its power...
Regards

Bejo · 29th August 2018, 09:09 AM

Hi,

I have a warongko that have similarities with warongko Wulan Tumanggal but in gayaman form. Does anyone have any information about my warongko?

Thank you,

Regards,

Joe

Athanase · 30th August 2018, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, i don't think that it is too important whether or not this wrongko was made during the Mataram/Kartosuro period or not, it is still a nice example of a fairly rare Javanese keris sheath and certainly worthy of collection just for this dress alone. The hilt is also pretty nice. I agree with Jean though that it is unlikely that the dress dates back as far as the 18th century, though it would not be impossible i suppose.
The blade, however, well may. It is a pity that it has undergone so much blade erosion. If it were mine i might find a decent mendak just to return some dignity to the ensemble.

I agree with you, for me it's unlikely that the scabbard is mid-18th century. Being reasonable I would say that it dates from the 19th century.

For the Mendak, I have several old but what are the typical forms from East Java? (to be in accordance with the handle)

Bejo · 31st August 2018, 11:25 AM

Hi,

They are some mendak that I think from East Java and Madura.

Regards,

Joe

Athanase · 1st September 2018, 10:39 AM

Thank you!

Jean · 1st September 2018, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bejo

Hi,

They are some mendak that I think from East Java and Madura.

Regards,

Joe

Nice mendaks collection, thank you! It seems to me that some pieces may be from Central Java but not a big deal!
Regards

David · 1st September 2018, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Nice mendaks collection, thank you! It seems to me that some pieces may be from Central Java but not a big deal!
Regards

I agree Jean. Here are some mendaks that were presented here a while back as East Jawa.

Bejo · 2nd September 2018, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Nice mendaks collection, thank you! It seems to me that some pieces may be from Central Java but not a big deal!
Regards

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I agree Jean. Here are some mendaks that were presented here a while back as East Jawa.

Hi,

If you don't mind, which of those mendak are maybe from Central Java? I upload the picture with numbers.

I still have confusion in determine mendak number 18. It looks like Jogja mendak, but I also feel like it is from East Java.

Thank you,

Best regards,

Joe

David · 2nd September 2018, 06:37 PM

Well, my understanding of traditional East Jawa mendaks is that that they are generally plainer and not usually bejeweled.
I could be wrong, but i would place #18 as Jogyakarta.

Of course, the bottom line for our friend Athanase here is that no one is really currently making East Madura style mendaks and antique ones will cost quite a bit so he will probably be best off settling for a more available style of Javanese mendak which will in the end still look much better that what is currently in place.

Jean · 2nd September 2018, 08:22 PM

Joe, if you have access to the reference book "Keris Jawa" written by the late Haryono Haryoguritno, please have a look at pages 280 & 281 for viewing the various styles of mendaks from Central Java.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 2nd September 2018, 10:47 PM

East Jawa/Madura mendak can look like Central Jawa mendak.

Central Jawa mendak can look like East Jawa/Madura mendak.

Solo mendak can look like Jogja mendak and vice versa.

Pesisiran mendak can look like anything at all.

Far East Jawa mendak --- like Blambangan --- can look like Bali wewer or incorporate elements of wewer design.

You need to look at the way a mendak is made to have a reasonable chance of guessing where it is from, for example, nearly all East Jawa/Madura mendak are made as a little cup, that is, no internal supporting construction. With mendak that have internal construction you need to ensure that they will fit the recess on the bottom of a hilt, or that where there is no recess, that the internal construction does not interfere with a neat seat onto the hilt base. Above all, you need to ensure that there is harmony of proportion and design, and that is not always easy.

Then, of course, we have solid cast or turned mendak, and they can be a real problem.

Personally, I have a bit of difficulty in looking at a picture of a mendak and saying it is one thing or the other, without qualification.

Here are some cast and turned mendak, some extremely old, some were excavated, and a few fine quality standard mendak for comparison.

Jean · 3rd September 2018, 09:05 AM

Thank you Alan, impressive collection of old pieces!
Regards

Bejo · 3rd September 2018, 03:51 PM

Than you all for the explanations.

Best regards,

Joe

Athanase · 28th October 2018, 02:39 PM

Hello,

Among the mendaks I had in stock, I found four that have the right dimensions.
The numbers 1 and 2 are copper and were formerly plated with silver.
Number 3 is silver and number 4 is brass.

In your opinion, which of his mendak is the best suitable with the rest of Keris?

David · 29th October 2018, 02:18 AM

I'm thinking 4, or perhaps 3. Others may differ.

A. G. Maisey · 29th October 2018, 02:39 AM

Is the pendok truly brass? that is, yellow brass? Or is it mamas? an alloy like nickel silver/german silver/white brass.

If mamas, use #3, if yellow brass, use #4.

Bejo · 29th October 2018, 01:41 PM

Hi,

From the pictures, I prefer no. 4. In my opinion, mendak no. 4 is the most fit with the deder.

Best regards,

Joe

Athanase · 29th October 2018, 11:20 PM

So, the most suitable mendak is the n°4 (the pendok is yellow brass, but pale yellow).
Thank you all for your opinion.

A. G. Maisey · 30th October 2018, 01:40 AM

Athanase, have you polished the pendok with a good metal polish?

Unpolished mamas often has a yellowish tint, polished it looks like silver, and in fact a number of unscrupulous dealers will present it as "native silver".

Pendoks should be polished, not left with so-called patina intact. A keris is an item of dress, or a weapon, as well as many other things, and in all cases the pendok should be polished.

Keris should always be presented in the best possible condition, not to do so is culturally incorrect and in certain circumstances can be very offensive to some people.

Jean · 30th October 2018, 10:48 AM

If this kris was mine I will not only polish the pendok but improve the joint with the gandar at the top and try to reduce the dents & creases with a sunglon (bronze or hard wood piece inserted inside the pendok). Thank you Alan for the corrections.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 30th October 2018, 12:05 PM

an error

Athanase · 2nd November 2018, 01:33 AM

I spent part of the pendok soaking in citric acid during a whole afternoon, after rinsing well, rubbing with a cloth and then drying the color is indeed much more silvery but still with a touch of yellow.
At one place there was a black oxide crust which has now become the same color as pure copper.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

If this kris was mine I will not only polish the pendok but improve the joint with the gandar at the top and try to reduce the dents & creases with a sunglon (bronze or hard wood piece inserted inside the pendok). Thank you Alan for the corrections.
Regards

The wood is stuck inside the pendok so it is not possible to correct the many bumps of the metal.

David · 2nd November 2018, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athanase

I spent part of the pendok soaking in citric acid during a whole afternoon, after rinsing well, rubbing with a cloth and then drying the color is indeed much more silvery but still with a touch of yellow.
At one place there was a black oxide crust which has now become the same color as pure copper.

It doesn't sound like you have actually tried metal polish.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd November 2018, 08:06 AM

I've said hello to a lot of pendoks, very large number of pendoks, so many I've forgotten their names.

A lot of these pendoks were like stubborn women, but I can truthfully say that I have never met one pendok that did not open up for me after the gentle application of a little heat.

An LPG blow torch is good, provided you can be delicate, an LPG camp stove is safer and probably more gentle, but whatever the adhesive is that is holding that pendok, it will let go if heated. It is a good idea to use industrial rubber gloves to grip the pendok as you gently, but forcefully persuade it to let go.

If the gandar breaks or lets go of the wrongko first, its no big deal, you just fix it, everything about a keris can be fixed.

In respect of polishing, the stuff that is used to polish mag wheels is good, use it along with fine steel wool, polish with a light coloured cloth, when there is no more black on the cloth it will be as good as you can get it.

28th August 2018, 07:35 PM	#7
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I am always hesitant to assess such a damaged blade, is it a precious but worn-out/ neglected pusaka or just worthless rubbish? In Europe the collectors tend to follow the second alternative, for instance I had little success in trying to sell these 2 very old krisses.... In the case of Athanase's kris, it is a pity that the blade be in such a poor condition indeed as it was certainly a very good piece originally. I would certainly have bought the kris just for the dress and hilt. A good way to re-use the blade would be to make a new blade partly from it for keeping its power... Regards Attached Images

29th August 2018, 09:09 AM	#8
Bejo Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: East Java, Indonesia Posts: 42	Hi, I have a warongko that have similarities with warongko Wulan Tumanggal but in gayaman form. Does anyone have any information about my warongko? Thank you, Regards, Joe Attached Images

31st August 2018, 11:25 AM	#10
Bejo Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: East Java, Indonesia Posts: 42	Hi, They are some mendak that I think from East Java and Madura. Regards, Joe Attached Images Last edited by Bejo; 31st August 2018 at 12:49 PM.

2nd September 2018, 10:47 PM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	East Jawa/Madura mendak can look like Central Jawa mendak. Central Jawa mendak can look like East Jawa/Madura mendak. Solo mendak can look like Jogja mendak and vice versa. Pesisiran mendak can look like anything at all. Far East Jawa mendak --- like Blambangan --- can look like Bali wewer or incorporate elements of wewer design. You need to look at the way a mendak is made to have a reasonable chance of guessing where it is from, for example, nearly all East Jawa/Madura mendak are made as a little cup, that is, no internal supporting construction. With mendak that have internal construction you need to ensure that they will fit the recess on the bottom of a hilt, or that where there is no recess, that the internal construction does not interfere with a neat seat onto the hilt base. Above all, you need to ensure that there is harmony of proportion and design, and that is not always easy. Then, of course, we have solid cast or turned mendak, and they can be a real problem. Personally, I have a bit of difficulty in looking at a picture of a mendak and saying it is one thing or the other, without qualification. Here are some cast and turned mendak, some extremely old, some were excavated, and a few fine quality standard mendak for comparison. Attached Images

28th October 2018, 02:39 PM	#20
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	Hello, Among the mendaks I had in stock, I found four that have the right dimensions. The numbers 1 and 2 are copper and were formerly plated with silver. Number 3 is silver and number 4 is brass. In your opinion, which of his mendak is the best suitable with the rest of Keris? Attached Images

27th August 2018, 10:58 PM	#1
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	Relic of a Javanese kriss whith original warangka Hello, Here is a kriss I like a lot despite the ghostly state of his blade. Lengh blade : 34cm Dapur : Cerita? I had seen an instructive explanation of this type of warangka in Mr. Maisey's Catalog No. 74 (?). Unfortunately I made the mistake of not copying the text and I can't find this page. The brass pendok seems to have been added later on the scabbard with a big bunch of glue, it seems to replace an old pendok or hide a wood too damaged. The blade has a pamor but it is not determinable because covered with a layer of black wax. The brass mendak is so damaged that it has almost disappeared. The pretty bone handle lets guess a character under the tracery. Any information on this type of sheath and handle is welcome. Attached Images

28th August 2018, 08:48 AM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	The hilt is in putrasatu style from East Java, see a rather similar specimen. Regards Attached Images

28th August 2018, 10:13 AM	#4
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	Thank you for your help.

28th August 2018, 05:00 PM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	The gambar tumanggal of Athanase's kris is very nice and peculiar because of the longitudinal ridge on both sides but I doubt that it dates from the Kartasura period or before.... Regards

28th August 2018, 06:18 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,119	Well, i don't think that it is too important whether or not this wrongko was made during the Mataram/Kartosuro period or not, it is still a nice example of a fairly rare Javanese keris sheath and certainly worthy of collection just for this dress alone. The hilt is also pretty nice. I agree with Jean though that it is unlikely that the dress dates back as far as the 18th century, though it would not be impossible i suppose. The blade, however, well may. It is a pity that it has undergone so much blade erosion. If it were mine i might find a decent mendak just to return some dignity to the ensemble.

1st September 2018, 10:39 AM	#11
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	Thank you!

2nd September 2018, 06:37 PM	#15
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,119	Well, my understanding of traditional East Jawa mendaks is that that they are generally plainer and not usually bejeweled. I could be wrong, but i would place #18 as Jogyakarta. Of course, the bottom line for our friend Athanase here is that no one is really currently making East Madura style mendaks and antique ones will cost quite a bit so he will probably be best off settling for a more available style of Javanese mendak which will in the end still look much better that what is currently in place.

2nd September 2018, 08:22 PM	#16
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Joe, if you have access to the reference book "Keris Jawa" written by the late Haryono Haryoguritno, please have a look at pages 280 & 281 for viewing the various styles of mendaks from Central Java. Regards

3rd September 2018, 09:05 AM	#18
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan, impressive collection of old pieces! Regards

3rd September 2018, 03:51 PM	#19
Bejo Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: East Java, Indonesia Posts: 42	Than you all for the explanations. Best regards, Joe

29th October 2018, 02:18 AM	#21
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,119	I'm thinking 4, or perhaps 3. Others may differ.

29th October 2018, 02:39 AM	#22
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Is the pendok truly brass? that is, yellow brass? Or is it mamas? an alloy like nickel silver/german silver/white brass. If mamas, use #3, if yellow brass, use #4.

29th October 2018, 01:41 PM	#23
Bejo Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: East Java, Indonesia Posts: 42	Hi, From the pictures, I prefer no. 4. In my opinion, mendak no. 4 is the most fit with the deder. Best regards, Joe

29th October 2018, 11:20 PM	#24
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	So, the most suitable mendak is the n°4 (the pendok is yellow brass, but pale yellow). Thank you all for your opinion.

30th October 2018, 01:40 AM	#25
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Athanase, have you polished the pendok with a good metal polish? Unpolished mamas often has a yellowish tint, polished it looks like silver, and in fact a number of unscrupulous dealers will present it as "native silver". Pendoks should be polished, not left with so-called patina intact. A keris is an item of dress, or a weapon, as well as many other things, and in all cases the pendok should be polished. Keris should always be presented in the best possible condition, not to do so is culturally incorrect and in certain circumstances can be very offensive to some people.

30th October 2018, 10:48 AM	#26
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	If this kris was mine I will not only polish the pendok but improve the joint with the gandar at the top and try to reduce the dents & creases with a sunglon (bronze or hard wood piece inserted inside the pendok). Thank you Alan for the corrections. Regards Last edited by Jean; 30th October 2018 at 06:35 PM.

30th October 2018, 12:05 PM	#27
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	an error

2nd November 2018, 08:06 AM	#30
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	I've said hello to a lot of pendoks, very large number of pendoks, so many I've forgotten their names. A lot of these pendoks were like stubborn women, but I can truthfully say that I have never met one pendok that did not open up for me after the gentle application of a little heat. An LPG blow torch is good, provided you can be delicate, an LPG camp stove is safer and probably more gentle, but whatever the adhesive is that is holding that pendok, it will let go if heated. It is a good idea to use industrial rubber gloves to grip the pendok as you gently, but forcefully persuade it to let go. If the gandar breaks or lets go of the wrongko first, its no big deal, you just fix it, everything about a keris can be fixed. In respect of polishing, the stuff that is used to polish mag wheels is good, use it along with fine steel wool, polish with a light coloured cloth, when there is no more black on the cloth it will be as good as you can get it.