A Saudia-Yemeni Sword.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th August 2013, 08:48 PM

A Saudia - Yemeni Sword.

Salaams All,

A lot of swords are flooding onto the Omani market in both Muscat and Salalah (I was there last week and obtained 4 out of 5 of the swords below) in the category not yet so well defined of Saudia Yemeni variant already discussed. It is generally thought that these weapons were originally Ethiopian with Rhino hilts and the hilts once they had arrived in Yemen were transferred to Jambia... and the rougher basic hilt as at pictures was added. The hilts do seem to be attributed to a style in Yemeni and Saudia Museums although as note ..perhaps somewhat roughly engineered.
The blades are variously German 19th C and or locally made in the Ethiopian style. Where they clearly originate from German manufacturers like Luckhause und Gunter they are decorated in the throat with the lion and banner motiff often very worn and with only a few tell tale squigles remaining.
The blades are quite heavy and some are reasonably flexible and with rounded tips done here (i.e.not done in Germany)

One weapon is single edged, straight (possibly straightened?) and of good quality steel. The hilt in that case is leather covered.

Another carries the local 3 moons and stars mark to both sides of the blade.
That blade has a dot at the tip on both sides.

Here are the 5 weapons.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st August 2013, 06:32 PM

Salaams all Note to Forum; The previous post underlines the now known route of such blades; many originally German/European sold to Ethiopia thence to Yemen(Sanaa) and on to Salalah and Mutrah Souks which have appeared spuriously on Omani long hilts and sold to visitors/tourists as Omani swords. It is difficult to know where to slot this mixed up weapon since it is not of the family Omani Battle Sword nor is it an Omani Dancing Sword (The Straight Sayf).

It is however placed here for reference and carries the warning that an Omani long hilted straight sword with a blade that is not flexible must immediately be looked at as a potential fake and likely to be mismatched from a Red Sea variant.

Workshop in Muttrah have been identified as having created probably thousands of such mix ups since 1970. Many workshops are defunct but some remain. None of these swords appear to be absorbed into the Omani local market because;

"the dancing sword must be a certain style and able to bend often almost double since that is the criteria for the 1744 flexible dancing style continuing to be made locally today in Ras al Khaimah and Salalah and pre 1970 by wandering gypsy groups all over Oman".

I have included this post on Omani Dancing Swords... so that library is correctly served.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th September 2013, 05:24 PM

Salaams all ~Note to Library

An interesting parallel on this Mahdist Dagger?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Iain · 28th September 2013, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all ~Note to Library

An interesting parallel on this Mahdist Dagger?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

That's a modern Tuareg tourist dagger...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th September 2013, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

That's a modern Tuareg tourist dagger...

Salaams Iain,
Rather supports my theory of the recent hilts shown at # 1. I recall the pamphlet description on the dagger as being of 1882 vintage in line with the start of the Madhist Wars, however, a later date ... indeed modern is in keeping with the arguement of these blades being played with in backstreet workshops probably in Yemen ...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Iain · 28th September 2013, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain,
Rather supports my theory of the recent hilts shown at # 1. I recall the pamphlet description on the dagger as being of 1882 vintage in line with the start of the Madhist Wars, however, a later date ... indeed modern is in keeping with the arguement of these blades being played with in backstreet workshops probably in Yemen ...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Bit of a geographical distance to start seeing any association I think...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th September 2013, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Bit of a geographical distance to start seeing any association I think...

Salaams Iain, Personally I think the closer link to style is the sword in the military museum rather... see #11at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ilitary+museum though I still think these hilts shown above are cheap knock ups done in Sanaa after the original hilts of Rhino were removed for Jambia hilts.
The dagger is added for interest...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

AhmedH · 11th November 2013, 07:41 AM

Salaam! Dear Ibrahim,

The hilt and the grooving style of these swords reveal their Arab origin. Do you have any idea which century do they date?

BTW, I'm new to the forum. My specialization is in Arab and non-Arab swords dating from 550 to 1300 CE. I must admit that -after reading some of your discussion threads- that you're quite informant in Omani, other Arab, North African, and East African swords.

Again, have you any idea which century do these swords return to?

Thanks a lot in advance.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th November 2013, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhmedH

Salaam! Dear Ibrahim,

The hilt and the grooving style of these swords reveal their Arab origin. Do you have any idea which century do they date?

BTW, I'm new to the forum. My specialization is in Arab and non-Arab swords dating from 550 to 1300 CE. I must admit that -after reading some of your discussion threads- that you're quite informant in Omani, other Arab, North African, and East African swords.

Again, have you any idea which century do these swords return to?

Thanks a lot in advance.

Salaams AhmedH ~ Welcome to the Forum. I think I have a good grasp of Omani Swords whilst there are many others on Forum that have excellent knowledge of other Arab, North African, and East African swords etc..

On the subject of the swords you indicate they do pose a few questions as to their origin though I know they emanate from Ethiopia where it is likely they had hilts of Rhino which when sold to Yemeni souks were removed and put onto Jambia...The blades then got tooled up in backyard workshops (rather crudely) and were sold on...either to tourists in Sanaa (plus souks in Saudia) and onward consignments were purchased by Omani dealers from Salalah and Mutrah Souk (shop owners etc etc). Most blades are traceable to European manufacture mainly Germany which flooded Africa with blades in the 19th C. I have seen a variety of hilts including long Omani Sayf and Indian Tulvar hilts adorning these blades; mainly fixed by Souk owners in their own or local workshops. I put these generally in the late 19th C category and I know they were transferred to Oman this year...and as the Yemen situation continues to deteriorate I am certain we shall see more.

Thank you for your post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

AhmedH · 11th November 2013, 07:10 PM

Dear Ibrahim,

Salaams! Thank you very much for your reply. I found it quite informative.

It's quite clear that the swords in this thread are not in my specialization. Being new to this site and discussion forum, I would like to participate in threads dealing with medieval swords and armor dating from 550 to 1300 CE. Though I must admit that I'm quite knowledgeable in arms and armor dating to other periods, I believe that one should stick to his own specialization.

I'm very indebted to your reply, sir. Thank you very much, once again.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 12th November 2013, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhmedH

Dear Ibrahim,

Salaams! Thank you very much for your reply. I found it quite informative.

It's quite clear that the swords in this thread are not in my specialization. Being new to this site and discussion forum, I would like to participate in threads dealing with medieval swords and armor dating from 550 to 1300 CE. Though I must admit that I'm quite knowledgeable in arms and armor dating to other periods, I believe that one should stick to his own specialization.

I'm very indebted to your reply, sir. Thank you very much, once again.

Salaams ... What I like about this forum is that the ink is free....so lets hear your ideas on the host of arms between the mid 6th and 14th Century.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

AhmedH · 12th November 2013, 09:11 PM

Salaams!

Thank you very much for your generous and encouraging reply. Any information you wish to know about the swords and armor in the period between 550 to 1300 CE shall have my concern and my answers.

BTW, this is for true: Would you like to see the original Dhu'l-Faqar and its present whereabouts? Well, I believe I made its identification back in 2000-2001. There are other famous swords belonging to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and his Companions (R.A.) that I was able to identify and study thoroughly.

If you wish me to speak about that, feel free and please start a new thread regarding that, and I'll be more than willing to write all the information that you want in that regards.

Thanks a lot in advance, sir.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th November 2013, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhmedH

Salaams!

Thank you very much for your generous and encouraging reply. Any information you wish to know about the swords and armor in the period between 550 to 1300 CE shall have my concern and my answers.

BTW, this is for true: Would you like to see the original Dhu'l-Faqar and its present whereabouts? Well, I believe I made its identification back in 2000-2001. There are other famous swords belonging to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and his Companions (R.A.) that I was able to identify and study thoroughly.

If you wish me to speak about that, feel free and please start a new thread regarding that, and I'll be more than willing to write all the information that you want in that regards.

Thanks a lot in advance, sir.

Salaams ... Go to the top of the list and see THREAD STARTER... hit the button and you can start your new thread.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

drac2k · 13th November 2013, 06:49 PM

I have found your post fascinating and I will ask your forgiveness in advance for focusing on a trivial aspect ;that of a hole drilled in the tip of one of the swords in your pictures.
I have, with some frequency found holes drilled into tulwars and tuareg swords, usually in the middle.I have attributed this to imbeciles who couldn't figure any other way to hang a sword from a wall. I know this to be true in one case, when a man showed me his U.S. naval cutlass and he confessed upon questioning that he was in fact the culprit who drilled the sword.
Is there any other explanation for the holes in the swords, especially those of Middle Eastern or African origin ?
Regards,
David

AhmedH · 13th November 2013, 07:24 PM

Thanks a lot, Ibrahim! I'll do just that!

spiral · 13th November 2013, 08:01 PM

Your possibly right David!

See...

linky!

or when I pointed the same out many years ago...

another linky!

drac2k · 13th November 2013, 11:45 PM

Thanks for the links; I think the "imbecile theory," wins ! Maybe my next post will be how disheartening it is to see the prize sword you won, sticking out of the poorly packed box, with the tip bent or broken !
Regards,
David

spiral · 14th November 2013, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

Thanks for the links; I think the "imbecile theory," wins ! Maybe my next post will be how disheartening it is to see the prize sword you won, sticking out of the poorly packed box, with the tip bent or broken !
Regards,
David

so far Ive been lucky, had a kukri arrive hanging out of the package held by an angry postman but no damage!

I just directly pointed out I wasn't the idiot who packed it & he calmed down.

regards spiral

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 14th November 2013, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

I have found your post fascinating and I will ask your forgiveness in advance for focusing on a trivial aspect ;that of a hole drilled in the tip of one of the swords in your pictures.
I have, with some frequency found holes drilled into tulwars and tuareg swords, usually in the middle.I have attributed this to imbeciles who couldn't figure any other way to hang a sword from a wall. I know this to be true in one case, when a man showed me his U.S. naval cutlass and he confessed upon questioning that he was in fact the culprit who drilled the sword.
Is there any other explanation for the holes in the swords, especially those of Middle Eastern or African origin ?
Regards,
David

Salaams drac2k ~ Whilst I cannot speak for the hole you describe in the US Naval Cutlass .. Holes in " Middle Eastern, African, Persian and Indian" blades are interesting since they are normally filled with copper or brass ( occasionally gold) however, the precise reason for this is unclear. Other filled dots appear nearer the hilt and can be configured usually one or three. They may be talismanic or define a good blade or brave owner? Certainly one and three are good talismans. Swords at the Topkapi exhibit these dots.. and I recently placed a dotted Khanjar blade with two triple dots at the throat on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...8&page=4&pp=30
Anyway, it is always nice to discover a blade with dots, though, perhaps the blade makers simply enhanced the blades worth by adding these.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ariel · 14th November 2013, 06:25 PM

Yup.
There are several Topkapi sword, both "sacred" and just Mamluk with brass/golled plugges holes. In their case, I hold British publicans innocent:-)

And then, of course, the Chinese Jians with 7 plugged holes.

28th September 2013, 05:24 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all ~Note to Library An interesting parallel on this Mahdist Dagger? Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images

27th August 2013, 08:48 PM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	A Saudia-Yemeni Sword. A Saudia - Yemeni Sword. Salaams All, A lot of swords are flooding onto the Omani market in both Muscat and Salalah (I was there last week and obtained 4 out of 5 of the swords below) in the category not yet so well defined of Saudia Yemeni variant already discussed. It is generally thought that these weapons were originally Ethiopian with Rhino hilts and the hilts once they had arrived in Yemen were transferred to Jambia... and the rougher basic hilt as at pictures was added. The hilts do seem to be attributed to a style in Yemeni and Saudia Museums although as note ..perhaps somewhat roughly engineered. The blades are variously German 19th C and or locally made in the Ethiopian style. Where they clearly originate from German manufacturers like Luckhause und Gunter they are decorated in the throat with the lion and banner motiff often very worn and with only a few tell tale squigles remaining. The blades are quite heavy and some are reasonably flexible and with rounded tips done here (i.e.not done in Germany) One weapon is single edged, straight (possibly straightened?) and of good quality steel. The hilt in that case is leather covered. Another carries the local 3 moons and stars mark to both sides of the blade. That blade has a dot at the tip on both sides. Here are the 5 weapons. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images

31st August 2013, 06:32 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all Note to Forum; The previous post underlines the now known route of such blades; many originally German/European sold to Ethiopia thence to Yemen(Sanaa) and on to Salalah and Mutrah Souks which have appeared spuriously on Omani long hilts and sold to visitors/tourists as Omani swords. It is difficult to know where to slot this mixed up weapon since it is not of the family Omani Battle Sword nor is it an Omani Dancing Sword (The Straight Sayf). It is however placed here for reference and carries the warning that an Omani long hilted straight sword with a blade that is not flexible must immediately be looked at as a potential fake and likely to be mismatched from a Red Sea variant. Workshop in Muttrah have been identified as having created probably thousands of such mix ups since 1970. Many workshops are defunct but some remain. None of these swords appear to be absorbed into the Omani local market because; "the dancing sword must be a certain style and able to bend often almost double since that is the criteria for the 1744 flexible dancing style continuing to be made locally today in Ras al Khaimah and Salalah and pre 1970 by wandering gypsy groups all over Oman". I have included this post on Omani Dancing Swords... so that library is correctly served. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

11th November 2013, 07:41 AM	#8
AhmedH Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Cairo, Egypt. Posts: 142	Salaam! Dear Ibrahim, The hilt and the grooving style of these swords reveal their Arab origin. Do you have any idea which century do they date? BTW, I'm new to the forum. My specialization is in Arab and non-Arab swords dating from 550 to 1300 CE. I must admit that -after reading some of your discussion threads- that you're quite informant in Omani, other Arab, North African, and East African swords. Again, have you any idea which century do these swords return to? Thanks a lot in advance.

11th November 2013, 07:10 PM	#10
AhmedH Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Cairo, Egypt. Posts: 142	Dear Ibrahim, Salaams! Thank you very much for your reply. I found it quite informative. It's quite clear that the swords in this thread are not in my specialization. Being new to this site and discussion forum, I would like to participate in threads dealing with medieval swords and armor dating from 550 to 1300 CE. Though I must admit that I'm quite knowledgeable in arms and armor dating to other periods, I believe that one should stick to his own specialization. I'm very indebted to your reply, sir. Thank you very much, once again.

12th November 2013, 09:11 PM	#12
AhmedH Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Cairo, Egypt. Posts: 142	Salaams! Thank you very much for your generous and encouraging reply. Any information you wish to know about the swords and armor in the period between 550 to 1300 CE shall have my concern and my answers. BTW, this is for true: Would you like to see the original Dhu'l-Faqar and its present whereabouts? Well, I believe I made its identification back in 2000-2001. There are other famous swords belonging to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and his Companions (R.A.) that I was able to identify and study thoroughly. If you wish me to speak about that, feel free and please start a new thread regarding that, and I'll be more than willing to write all the information that you want in that regards. Thanks a lot in advance, sir.

13th November 2013, 06:49 PM	#14
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	I have found your post fascinating and I will ask your forgiveness in advance for focusing on a trivial aspect ;that of a hole drilled in the tip of one of the swords in your pictures. I have, with some frequency found holes drilled into tulwars and tuareg swords, usually in the middle.I have attributed this to imbeciles who couldn't figure any other way to hang a sword from a wall. I know this to be true in one case, when a man showed me his U.S. naval cutlass and he confessed upon questioning that he was in fact the culprit who drilled the sword. Is there any other explanation for the holes in the swords, especially those of Middle Eastern or African origin ? Regards, David

13th November 2013, 07:24 PM	#15
AhmedH Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Cairo, Egypt. Posts: 142	Thanks a lot, Ibrahim! I'll do just that!

13th November 2013, 08:01 PM	#16
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Your possibly right David! See... linky! or when I pointed the same out many years ago... another linky!

13th November 2013, 11:45 PM	#17
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Thanks for the links; I think the "imbecile theory," wins ! Maybe my next post will be how disheartening it is to see the prize sword you won, sticking out of the poorly packed box, with the tip bent or broken ! Regards, David

14th November 2013, 06:25 PM	#20
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yup. There are several Topkapi sword, both "sacred" and just Mamluk with brass/golled plugges holes. In their case, I hold British publicans innocent:-) And then, of course, the Chinese Jians with 7 plugged holes.