Piso Podang Batak or Borneo?

erikscollectables · 24th April 2011, 08:10 AM

I recently added a strange piso podang to my collection. It is a strange variation in several respects. According to the source it came from an old Batak collection and all other items were indeed old Batak.

Would like to hear your opions.

Handle is of a silver alloy - and less strong than the regular handles looking at the damages. As allways 2 pieces put together. Cup on the top is open but quite small (smaller than what I am used to on Sumatra pieces).

Sheath is two pieces of wood put together but finished with silver alloy bands of a style that I do not recognize. It almost made me think of Madura. The mouth piece is missing.

The blade itself says nothing about origin as it is an old European (possibly Portugese) one.

What do you think?

Regards, Erik

Maurice · 24th April 2011, 08:51 PM

Hi Erik,

As far as I know the Borneo types used by the seadayak/Iban, or the podangs used by the Dusun in English North Borneo, all have brass handles.

If somebody has a Borneo type of podang with wilver pommel, I would love to see an image of it.

Best regards,
Maurice

Maurice · 24th April 2011, 08:59 PM

Oh and because it is was in the same collection with Batak pieces, and I have never seen a silver pommeled one from Borneo, I strongly incline to Batak instead of Iban/Dusun....

rasdan · 24th April 2011, 09:49 PM

Hello,

Some of these are actually used by Malay rulers. I had attached 2 photos of the weapon in question used to escort 2 Malay Sultan. The first is Sultan Ahmad, Sultan of Pahang, the second one is Sultan Muhammad, Sultan of Negeri Sembilan. Both pictures are taken in the end of 1800's.

I have in my possession a sword like that that is from the Malay Peninsula. It looked the same like their Sumatran counterparts, but there's a bit of intricacy of design of the hilt. The hilt is made with some white metal; probably silver aloy (since it has blackish oxidation), plated with gold. I have seen another one that is in a possesion of somebody in my hometown, a slightly larger/longer sword just like mine, that is said to be a present from Sultan Abu Bakar of Johore.

p/s: Mykeris, if you are reading this, please don't laugh.

erikscollectables · 24th April 2011, 09:58 PM

Very interesting, I did not know about this - these seem to be straight ones as well! Thanks for the info! Regards, Erik

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

Hello,

Some of these are actually used by Malay rulers. I had attached 2 photos of the weapon in question used to escort 2 Malay Sultan. The first is Sultan Ahmad, Sultan of Pahang, the second one is Sultan Muhammad, Sultan of Negeri Sembilan. Both pictures are taken in the end of 1800's.

I have in my possession a sword like that that is from the Malay Peninsula. It looked the same like their Sumatran counterparts, but there's a bit of intricacy of design of the hilt. The hilt is made with some white metal; probably silver aloy (since it has blackish oxidation), plated with gold. I have seen another one that is in a possesion of somebody in my hometown, a slightly larger/longer sword just like mine, that is said to be a present from Sultan Abu Bakar of Johore.

p/s: Mykeris, if you are reading this, please don't laugh.

rasdan · 24th April 2011, 10:04 PM

You're welcome Erik. Mine and the other one that I had seen are straight, just like yours. But it seems form the pic, there's curved ones as well..

erikscollectables · 24th April 2011, 10:27 PM

Hello Rasdan,

I noted that too. How strange that the same type of weapon appears in these different places, Sumatra, Borneo and Malasia.

I recently saw a picture from a friend with a ruler of Kutai in Borneo with an Aceh sikin with crowns. I was quite surprised by that!

Erik

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

You're welcome Erik. Mine and the other one that I had seen are straight, just like yours. But it seems form the pic, there's curved ones as well..

rasdan · 24th April 2011, 10:31 PM

Yes Erik, which makes collecting and researching more fun.

I'll try to take some pictures of my sword and post it here later.

erikscollectables · 24th April 2011, 10:42 PM

Please do so Rasdan, it seems very little has been written about this type of weapon. I will see what I can find more. This might make a nice article!

Regards, Erik

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

Yes Erik, which makes collecting and researching more fun.

I'll try to take some pictures of my sword and post it here later.

VVV · 25th April 2011, 12:05 AM

Nice find Erik and thanks for the great reference pictures Rasdan.
In Gardner's book Keris and Other Malay Weapons from 1936 you can find out more about the Malay Peninsular Chenangkas.

Michael

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7338
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10183

rasdan · 25th April 2011, 06:30 AM

Hello all,

Thank you very much for the pointers VVV! Have heard of the word, but I don't know this is the one and I never noticed that in Gardner's book.

The one that CharlesS have is marvellous! Never seen one with a locally forged blade before.

Here's the photos of my chenangkas. The repair at the end of the sheath is recent. I think the main difference with Borneo and Batak ones is probably the cup design. Also the screw in the cup is flush with the cup egde compared to the slightly longer screw in Sumatran ones.

The plating at mid section of the hilt had worn off, and the white metal can be seen.

erikscollectables · 25th April 2011, 07:46 AM

Good to hear from you Michael and thanks for the info! I'll pick up Gardner immediately from my bookshelf!

And just did - never did take notice of these remarks. Also interesting the reference to blades with the cipher of the Dutch company (VOC) in the Raffles museum!

I have a piso podang with a laminated blade with VOC markings. It is clear the blade is very old and not a recent tourist example - I would say 150 years or more but it does sound very unlikely that the VOC would use laminated blades - the original ones have very simple steel blades.

My hypothesis is that European blades had more status and that was a reason for adding stamps that are not original to the blade to improve the status of the weapons.

Maybe something for a different thread....
The problem is there are also recent copies of these which makes the research much more diffuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Nice find Erik and thanks for the great reference pictures Rasdan.
In Gardner's book Keris and Other Malay Weapons from 1936 you can find out more about the Malay Peninsular Chenangkas.

Michael

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7338
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10183

erikscollectables · 25th April 2011, 07:50 AM

Hi Rasdan,

Unfortunately the screw in the cup in mine is gone so that does not help. The design on the crosspiece of yours is like a leaf or something else organic. I have a Batak one with almost the same design which is done in brass. The ornamentation of the cup is new to me - I have not seen it before. Indeed very interesting! I have added a picture of mine - this is the one with a VOC marked blade by the way.

Erik

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

Hello all,

Thank you very much for the pointers VVV! Have heard of the word, but I don't know this is the one and I never noticed that in Gardner's book.

The one that CharlesS have is marvellous! Never seen one with a locally forged blade before.

Here's the photos of my chenangkas. The repair at the end of the sheath is recent. I think the main difference with Borneo and Batak ones is probably the cup design. Also the screw in the cup is flush with the cup egde compared to the slightly longer screw in Sumatran ones.

The plating at mid section of the hilt had worn off, and the white metal can be seen.

rasdan · 25th April 2011, 08:36 AM

Hi Erik,

Actually the screw and cup thing is just my quick theory. I don't really study these weapons to really tell the difference.

Cool one you have there. I love how the hilt's crosspiece flares out giving it a majestic look.

Somehow, I think your second one here is Malay, but who knows?

erikscollectables · 25th April 2011, 10:11 AM

This photo is quite famous. Titled the radja of Dolok and his followers.
He is a Batak ruler with his helpers and his weapons of state. In the middle the Leming Radja of which I own several. To the far right a Podang.
The story was that the podand could respresent a ruler - it was sent by ship to other rulers to represent himself - or so the story goes....

erikscollectables · 25th April 2011, 12:23 PM

Based on the background of the 3 I have they all should be Batak but indeed who knows, nice theme to do some further research....

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

Hi Erik,

Actually the screw and cup thing is just my quick theory. I don't really study these weapons to really tell the difference.

Cool one you have there. I love how the hilt's crosspiece flares out giving it a majestic look.

Somehow, I think your second one here is Malay, but who knows?

VVV · 25th April 2011, 01:29 PM

I have 2 and have had another 2 of the straight ones and none with a screw like you describe?
I haven't seen any pictures with a Batak carrying a chenangkas so I suspect that they are all Malay, maybe originating from Malacca (Portuguese and Indian influences)?

Michael

Norman McCormick · 25th April 2011, 01:46 PM

Hi Guys,
Can you post some stats on the straight blades you have. Just wondering about the possible Indian influences, see attached photo of an Indian sword of mine with a not dissimilar blade profile.
Regards,
Norman.

erikscollectables · 25th April 2011, 01:47 PM

I'll do some researching in the Dutch museums and see if they have any straight ones....They certainly are far more rare than the curved ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

I have 2 and have had another 2 of the straight ones and none with a screw like you describe?
I haven't seen any pictures with a Batak carrying a chenangkas so I suspect that they are all Malay, maybe originating from Malacca (Portuguese and Indian influences)?

Michael

VVV · 25th April 2011, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikscollectables

I'll do some researching in the Dutch museums and see if they have any straight ones....They certainly are far more rare than the curved ones.

There are a few at Leiden (of course). But it's not sure that they really are made by the Bataks.

Michael

rasdan · 25th April 2011, 03:13 PM

G'day VVV,

I had attached a picture of the cup assembly. The screw is strange, it is not solid, it has some kind of resin in it. I don't know why they would do this whole complicated things when they can just cast the entire hilt like other hilts. (Is it? Sorry for my ignorance) Probably to fix the blade?

I think actually everybody used to manufacture this sort of sword. Since there's a lot of similarity, we can't really say which is which..

VVV · 25th April 2011, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Guys,
Can you post some stats on the straight blades you have. Just wondering about the possible Indian influences, see attached photo of an Indian sword of mine with a not dissimilar blade profile.
Regards,
Norman.

What kind of stats do you want?
Please tell us some more about your Indian blade?

Michael

erikscollectables · 25th April 2011, 03:51 PM

There was a lot of trade between these locations so it will be hard to tell which was made where. All three I have came from old to very old Dutch collections that were only linked to Sumatra not one of the other places.....so most probably that is the location they were found at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

There are a few at Leiden (of course). But it's not sure that they really are made by the Bataks.

Michael

Norman McCormick · 29th April 2011, 01:48 PM

Hi Michael,
Apologies for the late reply. The stats I would like are the length, width but most particularly the thickness of the blade. I am also very interested in the flexibility of these type of blades. Please see my thread re the Indian blade/sword type Sukhela.
My Regards,
Norman.

VVV · 1st May 2011, 07:53 AM

Norman,

Here are the stats for two I still have (lenght all, lenght blade, width at base, thickness center in cm):
1) 84, 72, 3, and 0,02
2) 116, 96, 3 and 0,5

The first has an old European blade.

Michael

Norman McCormick · 5th May 2011, 12:13 AM

Hi Michael,
Many thanks for taking the time to post these stats. My Indian blade is as follows, total length 88.5cm, blade 77cm, width at base 4cm, thickness at centre 0.2cm, thickness at base 0.4cm. What I was wondering is if some of the blades used on Podangs had blades that originated in India as some of the forms are very similar to the blade I have. This 'Sukhela' blade type, indeed if it can be called that, appears to be quite flexible as can be seen on two blades in my thread about my sword. The non European blade that you have has a different profile from my Indian blade so this would probably not be a relevent comparison. If other members have locally made or non European imported blades on their Podangs I would be interested in any comparisons between my Indian blade and theirs. Thanks again Michael for your interest and patience.
My Regards,
Norman.

ariel · 5th May 2011, 12:52 AM

Just to remind:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=piso

VVV · 6th May 2011, 12:07 AM

None of the Malay Chenangkas I have handled had flexible blades.
But several of the Batak Piso Podang had flexible blades like you describe.
Ariel, I am sorry that I still can't say anything about your related sword.

Michael

24th April 2011, 08:10 AM	#1
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Piso Podang Batak or Borneo? I recently added a strange piso podang to my collection. It is a strange variation in several respects. According to the source it came from an old Batak collection and all other items were indeed old Batak. Would like to hear your opions. Handle is of a silver alloy - and less strong than the regular handles looking at the damages. As allways 2 pieces put together. Cup on the top is open but quite small (smaller than what I am used to on Sumatra pieces). Sheath is two pieces of wood put together but finished with silver alloy bands of a style that I do not recognize. It almost made me think of Madura. The mouth piece is missing. The blade itself says nothing about origin as it is an old European (possibly Portugese) one. What do you think? Regards, Erik Attached Images Last edited by erikscollectables; 24th April 2011 at 08:29 AM.

24th April 2011, 09:49 PM	#4
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hello, Some of these are actually used by Malay rulers. I had attached 2 photos of the weapon in question used to escort 2 Malay Sultan. The first is Sultan Ahmad, Sultan of Pahang, the second one is Sultan Muhammad, Sultan of Negeri Sembilan. Both pictures are taken in the end of 1800's. I have in my possession a sword like that that is from the Malay Peninsula. It looked the same like their Sumatran counterparts, but there's a bit of intricacy of design of the hilt. The hilt is made with some white metal; probably silver aloy (since it has blackish oxidation), plated with gold. I have seen another one that is in a possesion of somebody in my hometown, a slightly larger/longer sword just like mine, that is said to be a present from Sultan Abu Bakar of Johore. p/s: Mykeris, if you are reading this, please don't laugh. Attached Images

25th April 2011, 12:05 AM	#10
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Nice find Erik and thanks for the great reference pictures Rasdan. In Gardner's book Keris and Other Malay Weapons from 1936 you can find out more about the Malay Peninsular Chenangkas. Michael http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7338 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10183 Last edited by VVV; 25th April 2011 at 12:26 AM. Reason: added links to further references

25th April 2011, 06:30 AM	#11
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hello all, Thank you very much for the pointers VVV! Have heard of the word, but I don't know this is the one and I never noticed that in Gardner's book. The one that CharlesS have is marvellous! Never seen one with a locally forged blade before. Here's the photos of my chenangkas. The repair at the end of the sheath is recent. I think the main difference with Borneo and Batak ones is probably the cup design. Also the screw in the cup is flush with the cup egde compared to the slightly longer screw in Sumatran ones. The plating at mid section of the hilt had worn off, and the white metal can be seen. Attached Images Last edited by rasdan; 25th April 2011 at 06:43 AM.

25th April 2011, 10:11 AM	#15
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Radja of Dolok with his weapons of state This photo is quite famous. Titled the radja of Dolok and his followers. He is a Batak ruler with his helpers and his weapons of state. In the middle the Leming Radja of which I own several. To the far right a Podang. The story was that the podand could respresent a ruler - it was sent by ship to other rulers to represent himself - or so the story goes.... Attached Images

24th April 2011, 08:51 PM	#2
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,349	Hi Erik, As far as I know the Borneo types used by the seadayak/Iban, or the podangs used by the Dusun in English North Borneo, all have brass handles. If somebody has a Borneo type of podang with wilver pommel, I would love to see an image of it. Best regards, Maurice

24th April 2011, 08:59 PM	#3
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,349	Oh and because it is was in the same collection with Batak pieces, and I have never seen a silver pommeled one from Borneo, I strongly incline to Batak instead of Iban/Dusun....

24th April 2011, 10:04 PM	#6
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	You're welcome Erik. Mine and the other one that I had seen are straight, just like yours. But it seems form the pic, there's curved ones as well..

24th April 2011, 10:31 PM	#8
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Yes Erik, which makes collecting and researching more fun. I'll try to take some pictures of my sword and post it here later.

25th April 2011, 08:36 AM	#14
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi Erik, Actually the screw and cup thing is just my quick theory. I don't really study these weapons to really tell the difference. Cool one you have there. I love how the hilt's crosspiece flares out giving it a majestic look. Somehow, I think your second one here is Malay, but who knows?

25th April 2011, 01:29 PM	#17
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I have 2 and have had another 2 of the straight ones and none with a screw like you describe? I haven't seen any pictures with a Batak carrying a chenangkas so I suspect that they are all Malay, maybe originating from Malacca (Portuguese and Indian influences)? Michael

25th April 2011, 01:46 PM	#18
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi Guys, Can you post some stats on the straight blades you have. Just wondering about the possible Indian influences, see attached photo of an Indian sword of mine with a not dissimilar blade profile. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

25th April 2011, 03:13 PM	#21
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	G'day VVV, I had attached a picture of the cup assembly. The screw is strange, it is not solid, it has some kind of resin in it. I don't know why they would do this whole complicated things when they can just cast the entire hilt like other hilts. (Is it? Sorry for my ignorance) Probably to fix the blade? I think actually everybody used to manufacture this sort of sword. Since there's a lot of similarity, we can't really say which is which.. Attached Images

29th April 2011, 01:48 PM	#24
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi Michael, Apologies for the late reply. The stats I would like are the length, width but most particularly the thickness of the blade. I am also very interested in the flexibility of these type of blades. Please see my thread re the Indian blade/sword type Sukhela. My Regards, Norman.

1st May 2011, 07:53 AM	#25
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Norman, Here are the stats for two I still have (lenght all, lenght blade, width at base, thickness center in cm): 1) 84, 72, 3, and 0,02 2) 116, 96, 3 and 0,5 The first has an old European blade. Michael Attached Images

5th May 2011, 12:13 AM	#26
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi Michael, Many thanks for taking the time to post these stats. My Indian blade is as follows, total length 88.5cm, blade 77cm, width at base 4cm, thickness at centre 0.2cm, thickness at base 0.4cm. What I was wondering is if some of the blades used on Podangs had blades that originated in India as some of the forms are very similar to the blade I have. This 'Sukhela' blade type, indeed if it can be called that, appears to be quite flexible as can be seen on two blades in my thread about my sword. The non European blade that you have has a different profile from my Indian blade so this would probably not be a relevent comparison. If other members have locally made or non European imported blades on their Podangs I would be interested in any comparisons between my Indian blade and theirs. Thanks again Michael for your interest and patience. My Regards, Norman.

5th May 2011, 12:52 AM	#27
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Just to remind: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=piso

6th May 2011, 12:07 AM	#28
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	None of the Malay Chenangkas I have handled had flexible blades. But several of the Batak Piso Podang had flexible blades like you describe. Ariel, I am sorry that I still can't say anything about your related sword. Michael