Ottoman Bichaq help

Battara · 2nd March 2015, 02:54 AM

Greetings folks. Here is an Ottoman bichaq with a pattern welded blade. The hilt slabs are of rhino horn and the rest is silver with a little leather and ladder stitching in the middle of the scabbard.

Please take a look at the marks on the marks. Are these silver marks or something else?

Many thanks and Zukran!

Battara · 2nd March 2015, 02:54 AM

Oh yes - those marks:

Kubur · 2nd March 2015, 10:30 AM

Habibi
I have the same marks on a blunderbuss.
I will post some photos tonight.
There are stamps on the silver parts.
My blunderbuss is from Algeria.
It's possible that your bishaq comes from North Africa too...
Best,
Kubur

Kubur · 2nd March 2015, 07:51 PM

The photos

Battara · 3rd March 2015, 02:04 AM

Already helpful, thank you. Although my bichaq is Ottoman, the empire also included Algeria as well.

Battara · 4th March 2015, 11:56 PM

I was originally thinking that this was more Balkan due to the silver motif and style used. I did not think that the same motif and style was also used in Algeria, even though it was part of the empire.

Kubur · 5th March 2015, 11:17 AM

Hi Battara

It is from Algeria and Ottoman.
I will post later some examples with the same plain and simple hilt/grip.
Exactly like yours.

Plus surprisingly when I did some researches about this bichaq I found yours on a very famous dealer website
https://www.antiqueswords.com/produc...q-ca-1830.html

kronckew · 5th March 2015, 04:39 PM

knice knife. me like. outta my price range tho.

Battara · 5th March 2015, 05:10 PM

Yes Kubir, it originally came from him, although I didn't get from him directly (did some trade of some of my restoration work.......)

Kubur · 6th March 2015, 12:38 AM

http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/ottom...a-north-africa

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=5582

They look nice, they are ottomans, but from Algeria.

estcrh · 6th March 2015, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I will post later some examples with the same plain and simple hilt/grip.
Exactly like yours.

Kubur I would like to see your examples as I have never seen another one with the same grip shape Kubur as the one that Battara posted.

estcrh · 6th March 2015, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/ottom...a-north-africa

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=5582

They look nice, they are ottomans, but from Algeria.

Both of these are described as potentially being from North Africa, possibly Algeria, only one states the reasoning behind this attribution (the lobed pommel). What exactly makes a weapon "Algerian"?

An attractive Ottoman shamshir sword probably from Algeria or North Africa.
http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/ottom...a-north-africa

This rare form of Yataghan, with the lobed pommel is usually attributed as North African, probably Algeria.
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=5582

estcrh · 6th March 2015, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Battara

It is from Algeria and Ottoman.

Plus surprisingly when I did some researches about this bichaq I found yours on a very famous dealer website
https://www.antiqueswords.com/produc...q-ca-1830.html

This dealer also makes states no reason why this is being described as an "Algerian" weapon.

Quote:

A good Ottoman Algerian Bichaq, ca. 1830

estcrh · 6th March 2015, 01:57 AM

The scabbard of this yatahan has a clear North African influence. The scabbard of the bichaq that battara posted looks like a typical Ottoman scabbard.

Kubur · 6th March 2015, 10:41 AM

Hi all

Thanks for your last example.
I'm sorry I can't find the dagger that I told you.
I will look again, may be some members could help.

For your 'Ottoman' concern.

It's funny I have discussed this previously in several posts.
Basically people know that Ottoman empire was big.
But when we talk about arms and armors, they just think about Turkey and Balkans.

We have probably the same books: some books focus on a particular area like Elgood with the Balkans, others focus on a collection like Pinchot.
But these books don't cover the whole Ottoman empire.
And sometimes you have a lot of mistakes like Tirri's book (who stays an excellent reference).

I'm very interested in North Africa (Morocco, Algeria,Tunisia and Egypt).
I will post more stuff to enlarge a limited narrowed vision on Balkans and Turkey.

To finish, you can find Balkans arms in Algeria and the pistols with coral inlays are not all from Algeria...
Just guys open your mind to other area of the Ottoman empire (like Hijaz for example)...

Kubur

BANDOOK · 6th March 2015, 11:20 AM

KUBUR NICE ALGERIAN BLUNDERBAS,INCASE IF YOU EVER DECIDE TO SELL ,DO LET ME KNOW,KIND REGARDS RAJESH

Sancar · 6th March 2015, 11:34 AM

I don't know if this blade is from Balkans, Anatolia or Magrip, but when a Ottoman "bıçak" have a slight S curve and generally looks like a miniature yatağan(though most later examples are not this nice), it is usually called "saldırma" or attack(knife) in Turkish terminology.

As you can deduce from the name, it is a fighting knife. Hoodlams and criminals usually hide these knives under their jackets, tucked in under their arms. It was popularized in 19th century, after desolution of janissary corps and there is a theory that first versions of these knives were cut down yatağans(to carry it easier hidden). These blades reamined popular between criminals and gangsters in Turkey until early 60s. And it is still listed as an illegal weapon by Turkish criminal law.

estcrh · 7th March 2015, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

For your 'Ottoman' concern.

It's funny I have discussed this previously in several posts.
Basically people know that Ottoman empire was big.
But when we talk about arms and armors, they just think about Turkey and Balkans...........I'm very interested in North Africa (Morocco, Algeria,Tunisia and Egypt).

I will post more stuff to enlarge a limited narrowed vision on Balkans and Turkey.

To finish, you can find Balkans arms in Algeria and the pistols with coral inlays are not all from Algeria...
Just guys open your mind to other area of the Ottoman empire (like Hijaz for example)...

Kubur

Kuber, I am also very interested in weapons and armor from North Africa (Morocco, Algeria,Tunisia and Egypt). My point when discussing whether a particular item is from a certain part of the vast Ottoman empire is that if you are to positively state that an item is in fact "Algerian", "Balkan", "Albanian" "Egyptian" etc then there should be certain general characteristics that are repeatedly seen in other similar examples.

So far I do not see anything about the bichaq that Battara posted which shouts out as being "Algerian", but since I am not as familiar with Algerian weapons as some other forum members I would appreciate anyone who can show me what in particular would make the bichaq that Battara posted appear to be Algerian or even Balkan. To me it looks like a flat out Ottoman bichaq with not enough distinguishing characteristics to pin point a particular region of use or manufacture.

Battara · 7th March 2015, 01:44 AM

Caber and others, thank you for your posting examples of what you are discussing.

We are aware of the openness of the Ottoman empire and that there was a lot of influence and style mixing, like the use of coral gemstones all over the empire, from Algeria to Bosnia. Yet there are local influences. I guess I have never noticed those from Algeria......

estcrh · 7th March 2015, 06:17 AM

Here are a few examples of repeated characteristics that are supposedly associated with North African hilts and a quote from Artzi.

Quote:

This rare form of Yataghan, with the lobed pommel is usually identified as North African, probably Algeria. In addition, most of these Yataghans will come with rhino horn hilt grips.

Kubur · 7th March 2015, 09:36 AM

Some people think that this type of Yataghan with small curved ears are from Algeria. To be honest I don't know why...
It's like the Pala without guard, they are supposed to be Algerians.
I just post one of my flyssa daggers, you see the design of the scabbard and the blade are Algerian, but the general look of the dagger is like a bichaq.
Check this one also
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11699
Some people call these daggers flyssa others bichaq...
It is a complicated issue on this forum, should we use generic names or local names to define these objects????
For example, i think that an Omani sword is not a sayf but a kattara, despite all the discussions on this forum. Because when you say a kattara you know exactly where it comes from...

Martin Lubojacky · 7th March 2015, 12:23 PM

"Some people think that this type of Yataghan with small curved ears are from Algeria. To be honest I don't know why...
It's like the Pala without guard, they are supposed to be Algerians."

Dear Kubur,

I think this is becausoe of the fact, that you can find "predominantly" one (or a few major) type of fittings in the certain country (territory). E.g. if you are in Tunnisia, you will notice, that "local yathagans" ´handles are usually without ears and scabbards are often wholy brass plated with local motives engraved. On the opposite site I guess you can confirm, that T form of the termination of the handles of the (so called) "zeybeks" yathagans occures in central Anatolya very often (and you will not find it in Libya etc.) I am of the opinion that adornment used to be often done in the local place (e.g. including coftgari) despite the fact that thle blade style and/or trade mark occurs in much wider territoty. - So that´s why
Best
Martin

Kubur · 8th March 2015, 12:20 PM

Dear Martin,

I agree with the blades for knifes and swords.
It is also the case with the locks and barrels for pistols and long guns.
But I think that the grips for swords and daggers or the wooden stocks for guns are locals. Unlike the decorations or the scabbards as you said.

For North Africa, a good book for all:
Gold and Coral. Presentation arms from Algiers and Tunis

Best,
Kubur

Battara · 9th March 2015, 02:45 AM

Unfortunately this book does not show up on Amazon........

estcrh · 9th March 2015, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Unfortunately this book does not show up on Amazon........

Thanks to Kubur for mentioning this book, there is not enough discussion of the weapons from Algeria and surrounding regions.

https://thomasheneage.wordpress.com/...gier-to-tunis/

estcrh · 9th March 2015, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Some people think that this type of Yataghan with small curved ears are from Algeria. To be honest I don't know why...
It's like the Pala without guard, they are supposed to be Algerians.

Any proof that the pala without guards are Algerian or is that just an accepted belief?

Battara · 11th March 2015, 01:01 AM

Estcrh, I think it would be a better idea to post your great question in it's own thread. This deserves it's own thread for others to chime in.......(I'd like to know myself -

).

2nd March 2015, 02:54 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Ottoman Bichaq help Greetings folks. Here is an Ottoman bichaq with a pattern welded blade. The hilt slabs are of rhino horn and the rest is silver with a little leather and ladder stitching in the middle of the scabbard. Please take a look at the marks on the marks. Are these silver marks or something else? Many thanks and Zukran! Attached Images

2nd March 2015, 02:54 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Oh yes - those marks: Attached Images

2nd March 2015, 07:51 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	The photos Attached Images

6th March 2015, 01:57 AM	#14
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	The scabbard of this yatahan has a clear North African influence. The scabbard of the bichaq that battara posted looks like a typical Ottoman scabbard. Attached Images

7th March 2015, 09:36 AM	#21
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Some people think that this type of Yataghan with small curved ears are from Algeria. To be honest I don't know why... It's like the Pala without guard, they are supposed to be Algerians. I just post one of my flyssa daggers, you see the design of the scabbard and the blade are Algerian, but the general look of the dagger is like a bichaq. Check this one also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11699 Some people call these daggers flyssa others bichaq... It is a complicated issue on this forum, should we use generic names or local names to define these objects???? For example, i think that an Omani sword is not a sayf but a kattara, despite all the discussions on this forum. Because when you say a kattara you know exactly where it comes from... Attached Images

2nd March 2015, 10:30 AM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Habibi I have the same marks on a blunderbuss. I will post some photos tonight. There are stamps on the silver parts. My blunderbuss is from Algeria. It's possible that your bishaq comes from North Africa too... Best, Kubur

3rd March 2015, 02:04 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Already helpful, thank you. Although my bichaq is Ottoman, the empire also included Algeria as well.

4th March 2015, 11:56 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I was originally thinking that this was more Balkan due to the silver motif and style used. I did not think that the same motif and style was also used in Algeria, even though it was part of the empire.

5th March 2015, 11:17 AM	#7
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Battara It is from Algeria and Ottoman. I will post later some examples with the same plain and simple hilt/grip. Exactly like yours. Plus surprisingly when I did some researches about this bichaq I found yours on a very famous dealer website https://www.antiqueswords.com/produc...q-ca-1830.html

5th March 2015, 04:39 PM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	knice knife. me like. outta my price range tho.

5th March 2015, 05:10 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Yes Kubir, it originally came from him, although I didn't get from him directly (did some trade of some of my restoration work.......)

6th March 2015, 12:38 AM	#10
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/ottom...a-north-africa http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=5582 They look nice, they are ottomans, but from Algeria.

6th March 2015, 10:41 AM	#15
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi all Thanks for your last example. I'm sorry I can't find the dagger that I told you. I will look again, may be some members could help. For your 'Ottoman' concern. It's funny I have discussed this previously in several posts. Basically people know that Ottoman empire was big. But when we talk about arms and armors, they just think about Turkey and Balkans. We have probably the same books: some books focus on a particular area like Elgood with the Balkans, others focus on a collection like Pinchot. But these books don't cover the whole Ottoman empire. And sometimes you have a lot of mistakes like Tirri's book (who stays an excellent reference). I'm very interested in North Africa (Morocco, Algeria,Tunisia and Egypt). I will post more stuff to enlarge a limited narrowed vision on Balkans and Turkey. To finish, you can find Balkans arms in Algeria and the pistols with coral inlays are not all from Algeria... Just guys open your mind to other area of the Ottoman empire (like Hijaz for example)... Kubur

6th March 2015, 11:20 AM	#16
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	KUBUR NICE ALGERIAN BLUNDERBAS,INCASE IF YOU EVER DECIDE TO SELL ,DO LET ME KNOW,KIND REGARDS RAJESH

6th March 2015, 11:34 AM	#17
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	I don't know if this blade is from Balkans, Anatolia or Magrip, but when a Ottoman "bıçak" have a slight S curve and generally looks like a miniature yatağan(though most later examples are not this nice), it is usually called "saldırma" or attack(knife) in Turkish terminology. As you can deduce from the name, it is a fighting knife. Hoodlams and criminals usually hide these knives under their jackets, tucked in under their arms. It was popularized in 19th century, after desolution of janissary corps and there is a theory that first versions of these knives were cut down yatağans(to carry it easier hidden). These blades reamined popular between criminals and gangsters in Turkey until early 60s. And it is still listed as an illegal weapon by Turkish criminal law.

7th March 2015, 01:44 AM	#19
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Caber and others, thank you for your posting examples of what you are discussing. We are aware of the openness of the Ottoman empire and that there was a lot of influence and style mixing, like the use of coral gemstones all over the empire, from Algeria to Bosnia. Yet there are local influences. I guess I have never noticed those from Algeria......

7th March 2015, 12:23 PM	#22
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	"Some people think that this type of Yataghan with small curved ears are from Algeria. To be honest I don't know why... It's like the Pala without guard, they are supposed to be Algerians." Dear Kubur, I think this is becausoe of the fact, that you can find "predominantly" one (or a few major) type of fittings in the certain country (territory). E.g. if you are in Tunnisia, you will notice, that "local yathagans" ´handles are usually without ears and scabbards are often wholy brass plated with local motives engraved. On the opposite site I guess you can confirm, that T form of the termination of the handles of the (so called) "zeybeks" yathagans occures in central Anatolya very often (and you will not find it in Libya etc.) I am of the opinion that adornment used to be often done in the local place (e.g. including coftgari) despite the fact that thle blade style and/or trade mark occurs in much wider territoty. - So that´s why Best Martin

8th March 2015, 12:20 PM	#23
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Dear Martin, I agree with the blades for knifes and swords. It is also the case with the locks and barrels for pistols and long guns. But I think that the grips for swords and daggers or the wooden stocks for guns are locals. Unlike the decorations or the scabbards as you said. For North Africa, a good book for all: Gold and Coral. Presentation arms from Algiers and Tunis Best, Kubur

9th March 2015, 02:45 AM	#24
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Unfortunately this book does not show up on Amazon........

11th March 2015, 01:01 AM	#27
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Estcrh, I think it would be a better idea to post your great question in it's own thread. This deserves it's own thread for others to chime in.......(I'd like to know myself - ).