17th January 2009, 05:20 PM | #1 |
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OTTOMAN PALA translation please
Hi everyone.This is the ottoman pala that I have.
I have some questions about it. 1.Can anyone translate the cartouch that it has?I know that this is difficult because the coftgari is worn out. 2.Is it wootz or something else? 3.Do you believe that the blade is ottoman or persian or ...... Thanks in advance Ilias |
17th January 2009, 05:22 PM | #2 |
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Just to add some more images
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18th January 2009, 02:34 AM | #3 |
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What a beautiful piece. Shame some of the koftgari is missing.
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18th January 2009, 01:53 PM | #4 | |
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Please note the wootz: how many wootz Ottoman kilijes have you seen, folks? That's what I call RARE! |
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18th January 2009, 02:20 PM | #5 |
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!!Woww!!
Ilias: would you be so kind to provide us with some measures? One thing I never knew, is the thickness of the blade of this weapons at their base, not counting edge or T-spine. Is it heavy? Thank you for your attention. Regards Gonzalo |
18th January 2009, 03:26 PM | #6 |
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Thank you all for the good words you said about my sword.
Aslo Gonzalo about the mesurments I will provide them to you tomorrow but I can tell you right now the weight of the blade without the hilt and the guard. It is 650 gr.Do you think it is light enough or not? |
18th January 2009, 04:47 PM | #7 | |
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may be some one else will complete ? ā + Dom |
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18th January 2009, 06:20 PM | #8 |
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Great piece!
Interestingly I see a mechanical pattern or even acid etched (proximal) as well as wootz. Do you see a faint weld line? All the Best Jeff |
18th January 2009, 06:47 PM | #9 |
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Beautiful! Wonderful!!!
BREATHTAKING! |
19th January 2009, 10:25 PM | #10 |
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Dear Dom .Thank's for the translation.I know it is difficult to find out what it says.
Gonzalo the thickness of the blade at the base is 5mm and at the middle 4mm and the total length 87cm.I believe these are the mesurments you have asked me, if you want anything else I will be happy to help. Best regards Ilias |
20th January 2009, 04:39 PM | #11 | |
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Regards Gonzalo |
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4th February 2009, 05:22 AM | #12 |
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one question. why people keep calling this "model" a pala. This is a 100% typical kilij.
maybe im wrong, but Pala (or persian name Gaddare) looked a bit different. there was several versions but the crossguard looked the same - bent in the direction of blade. Also most had the "anatomical" pommel, one like in the Karabela type. |
4th February 2009, 02:22 PM | #13 |
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What a fantastic blade ....
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4th February 2009, 04:05 PM | #14 |
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Ingvar, i agree.
This is typical Turkish kylych. Pala is much more straight, and has cross guard bended to the front. But is is beutifull kylych thaugh. |
4th February 2009, 04:21 PM | #15 | |
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4th February 2009, 04:55 PM | #16 |
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http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Kilij
The kilij (also spelled kilic) is a sword used by the Ottoman Empire starting around the late 15th century. These blades were a distinct variation on the Turko-Mongol sabers that had been used over all the lands touched by the empire of the Kahns. The oldest surviving examples sport a long blade with a gentle curve slightly more noticeable in the distal half. The width of the blade stays thin (with a slight taper) up until the last 30% of its length, at which point it flares deeper. This distinctive flaring tip is called a "yelman" which greatly adds to the cutting power of the sword. Swords of the next couple of centuries were mainly of the Persian shamshir variety; Persian blades (that did not have the yelman) were fitted with Ottoman hilts. These hilts normally had slightly larger upper guards, and sported a bobble of a end-grip compared to the parent shamshir. In the mid 18th century the kilij produced looked much more like the original design, though shorter, much more acutely curved, and sporting a deep blade with an even deeper yelman. In addition to the flared tip, these blades have a distinct "T-shaped" cross section to the back of the blade. This allows even greater strength and hence greater ability to cause grievous wounds when cleaving. The flared and 'cut away' profile of these thick blades gave it the archetypal 'Voyages of Sinbad' appearance. Some of these shorter Kilij are also referred to as "Pala" but there does not seem to be a clear cut distinction in naming. |
4th February 2009, 05:04 PM | #17 |
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It mostly a matter a diferrentiation. Kilich - is a wider therm, and pala is more narrow.
Something like a sword and a saber. |
4th February 2009, 05:11 PM | #18 |
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Yustas, I have read the memoirs of Bulgarian revolutionaries during the 19th century, and in them they refer to the shorter, wider version of the kilidj from the early 19th century as "pala". Personally, I give more importance to contemporary accounts than to on-line encyclopedias.
You stated that the "pala" is straighter and has upward quillons. I am sure you have a reason for this statement, and my question was not intended as argumentative - I am always looking to learn. Regards, Teodor |
4th February 2009, 05:18 PM | #19 |
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And again, in different countries, same word may mean different things.
Example - "harbuz" in Ukrainian means - pumpkin "arbuz" in russian means watermenlon. So close, but there is a difference. |
4th February 2009, 05:36 PM | #20 | |
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4th February 2009, 05:42 PM | #21 |
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I have no direct link or source at the time, but this is what i figured out by looking at different variation of Turkish swords on the web. The type that ingvar posted, or one of this kind :
http://picasaweb.google.com/yura.sor...84308894373554 was always referred as pala. |
4th February 2009, 06:10 PM | #22 | |
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You state that "this kind ... was always referred as pala", and I just ask - by whom? |
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4th February 2009, 07:38 PM | #23 | |
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there are many things in history you cannot source. you know. From what i read from a historian working in Kremlin's Historic Weaponry Room, Pala is a parade version of Klij, things that differ it from a basic Klij is a specific srossguard. Early Pala had a Karabella type pommel, later Pala had a typical bulbous turkish pommel. In this case the sourse is book "Turkish Weapons" by E. Astvatsaurian. |
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5th February 2009, 03:02 AM | #24 |
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I looked at Astvatsaturian's book and she does indeed use the word "pala" for some of the earlier swords, without giving any reason as to why. I have to say, in comparison to Elgood, she really gives few notes and contemporary accounts in her text. I also noted that the guard shape does not seem that important in her classification, as other sword with upturned quillons are called kilidj in her book.
I think Astvatsaturian is a great author, but we should be careful before we treat published works as Gospel. Another Russian author, Kulinskiy, refers to almost every German bayonet as a hirschfanger, and we know that in german the word was used to describe a completely different weapon, which he calls "hunting dagger" ("кортик"). Personally, I prefer to use weapon names as they were used by their original users, and from what I have read, the word pala was used in the Balkans to refer to a sword, much like the one in the opening post. Regards, Teodor |
5th February 2009, 03:37 AM | #25 | |
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well "kortik" means "marine dirk", and was worn by the officers only. But did ou look at her book, or read it? |
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5th February 2009, 06:17 AM | #26 | |
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Regards, Teodor |
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5th February 2009, 04:22 PM | #27 |
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then, i suppose we've met an ancient "Saber vs Sabre" type of problem
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