unknown sabre, possibly North Africa

Wodimi · 20th June 2019, 08:47 PM

Dear members, maybe somebody can help me with this sabre and know what it is or have seen a similar sabre. The wooden scabbard, covered with leather, is for me typical African work. The handle have little similarities to a Flissa handle. The star marks on the blade could be from Morocco.
I would be very happy if somebody have an idea.
Thanks.

A.alnakkas · 20th June 2019, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodimi

Dear members, maybe somebody can help me with this sabre and know what it is or have seen a similar sabre. The wooden scabbard, covered with leather, is for me typical African work. The handle have little similarities to a Flissa handle. The star marks on the blade could be from Morocco.
I would be very happy if somebody have an idea.
Thanks.

An authentic Yemeni sword. Of lower quality iron mounts but with a good trade blade and what looks like a solid hilt. These are readily available compared to the other ones with finer and older mounts but still nice to own.

ariel · 20th June 2019, 09:57 PM

Agree 100%

Wodimi · 20th June 2019, 10:07 PM

thanks friends, that was quick. With this help I found also an old thread with a similar sword.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15084

Jim McDougall · 20th June 2019, 11:43 PM

This Yemeni form seems to follow the 'karabela' hilt form in a more stylized manner (the left sword in the photo of three) which resembles the stylized trilobate silver repousse hilts of Hadhramaut (third photo).

The blade is of German trade blade form and the stars in configuration seems either a variation or interpretation of the Schimmelbusch maker group of 19th century. Similar markings with stars are seen on some of the so called "Zanzibar' nimcha blades as well.

The heavy, 'hatchet' point was favored throughout 19th c. in Arabia and into the early 20th.
Ive always considered these Arabian swords attractive and fascinating.

The entries on Schimmelbusch markings from Bezdek (2000).

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd June 2019, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodimi

Dear members, maybe somebody can help me with this sabre and know what it is or have seen a similar sabre. The wooden scabbard, covered with leather, is for me typical African work. The handle have little similarities to a Flissa handle. The star marks on the blade could be from Morocco.
I would be very happy if somebody have an idea.
Thanks.

Wodimi, Pleased you traced through Library my thread on these weapons which I attribute to Sanaa although Muttrah was where the pictures were taken. They also go in for a lot of rehilting work there but usually of Omani style blades.. This almost Karabela form is Yemeni or at least rehilted there. Although somewhat rough they still retain a certain charm..The blade displays the famous 7 star cluster which I thought was Plieades or the 7 sisters... I can never remember.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd June 2019, 02:52 PM

Further recognition for an excellent research note by Jim on this subject of the star cluster on blades ...The entries on Schimmelbusch markings from Bezdek (2000). Neatly tying down the issue.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 22nd June 2019, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Further recognition for an excellent research note by Jim on this subject of the star cluster on blades ...The entries on Schimmelbusch markings from Bezdek (2000). Neatly tying down the issue.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thanks very much Ibrahiim! Question....did the seven stars have special significance in Arabian arms as far as symbolism? I know that in China, the constellation of Ursa Major, or seven stars represented the configuration of the 'seven wells', a production center (I think Long Guan but cant recall) where high quality blades for China were made. A sort of Chinese 'Solingen' if you will.

Could such symbolism have transmitted into Arabian parlance in the manner that the dual moons (dukari) did in North Africa?

grendolino · 23rd June 2019, 10:08 PM

Those sabres seems to me be not essentially a very simple ones but rather suitable for battle. All I have seen live or online were mounted on 18th century Hungarian or German blades, always being rather weary.
Their quillons though rough ones were forged thus being the better protection than those silver or steel but soldered sheet made or of cast brass.
Some of them also had a decoration similar to Sanaa or Sa'da Assib jambiyas what can give a clue of their origin.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th June 2019, 08:31 PM

Reference..
A. https://www.bing.com/search?q=plaeid...ESR4N&pc=EUPP_

Full marks to Grendolino with this great example of The Seven Sisters star symbols better known as Pleiades or M45. Ref A above refers to much of the background at web on the star system and mythology. The German blade makers applied much Talisman for effect from astrology mainly the sun often with eyes nose mouth accompanied by fanciful rays.. and funniface moons. Peter Munch (Solingen)is credited with these under his name but a footnote also suggests these were not sword makers marks but applied purely as Talisman and quite at random. What may be seen on typical blades at thread are occasional locally applied marks perhaps to raise the price? On the other hand trade blades in the typical profile with heavy back blade and three deep fullers may well all originally have been star marked in Solingen. Other weapons must have also been so stamped...see below.

What is certain about the silver decoration on the example scabbard is its Yemeni origin as this is typical sand cast low quality silver often seen on Yemeni work.

Jim...Regarding the Big Dipper...The Plough or The Great Bear ...URSA MAJOR … I have avoided that but note its Chinese name and as you say the 7 wells etc and will place a post covering that situation but just to keep the two so called seven star constellations separate for the moment...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th June 2019, 10:09 PM

[SIZE=4][SIZE=7][SIZE=6]Here an example of a completely different constellation The Plough or Big Dipper or Great Bear or URSA MAJOR but from the Chinese perspective. This star group famous as the pointer to Polaris or The North Star...

So below a Ming Dynasty Chinese sword with the main stars shaped in formation and inscribed on the blade top left.~

Naturally there are many interpretations of Ursa Major and although I am asked about the Chinese ..at the same time there are other fascinating accounts including Hindu and even North American Indian concepts worth viewing at https://howlingpixel.com/i-en/Ursa_Major

Staying with the Chinese concept please see https://www.chinasage.info/stars.htm from which I quote Quote'' The Great Bear is split into two constellations and is the seat of divine justice. The ‘Seven Stars’ in China can refer to sun; moon and the five major planets but also to Ursa Major ➚ (the Northern Dipper or Plow or Great Bear). The Great Bear appears directly overhead at times over parts of China and was therefore considered the center of the heavens. Known as 北斗 Běi dǒu ('Northern cup') in China it was represented as a red faced god who determining death and plays chess with the Southern Dipper. The seven stars of the dipper are important in Daoism and are often shown as august figures in pictures who can bring long life and wealth. In the ‘Flying Star’ system of Feng Shui it is these stars that determine good fortune. The Dipper has been used in the West to quickly find the pole star but the Chinese used other pairs of stars to find it, for example the stars in the constellation of Orion".Unquote

20th June 2019, 08:47 PM	#1
Wodimi Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 75	unknown sabre, possibly North Africa Dear members, maybe somebody can help me with this sabre and know what it is or have seen a similar sabre. The wooden scabbard, covered with leather, is for me typical African work. The handle have little similarities to a Flissa handle. The star marks on the blade could be from Morocco. I would be very happy if somebody have an idea. Thanks. Attached Images

20th June 2019, 11:43 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	This Yemeni form seems to follow the 'karabela' hilt form in a more stylized manner (the left sword in the photo of three) which resembles the stylized trilobate silver repousse hilts of Hadhramaut (third photo). The blade is of German trade blade form and the stars in configuration seems either a variation or interpretation of the Schimmelbusch maker group of 19th century. Similar markings with stars are seen on some of the so called "Zanzibar' nimcha blades as well. The heavy, 'hatchet' point was favored throughout 19th c. in Arabia and into the early 20th. Ive always considered these Arabian swords attractive and fascinating. The entries on Schimmelbusch markings from Bezdek (2000). Attached Images

23rd June 2019, 10:08 PM	#9
grendolino Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 38	Not a very simple one Those sabres seems to me be not essentially a very simple ones but rather suitable for battle. All I have seen live or online were mounted on 18th century Hungarian or German blades, always being rather weary. Their quillons though rough ones were forged thus being the better protection than those silver or steel but soldered sheet made or of cast brass. Some of them also had a decoration similar to Sanaa or Sa'da Assib jambiyas what can give a clue of their origin. Attached Images

26th June 2019, 08:31 PM	#10
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Reference.. A. https://www.bing.com/search?q=plaeid...ESR4N&pc=EUPP_ Full marks to Grendolino with this great example of The Seven Sisters star symbols better known as Pleiades or M45. Ref A above refers to much of the background at web on the star system and mythology. The German blade makers applied much Talisman for effect from astrology mainly the sun often with eyes nose mouth accompanied by fanciful rays.. and funniface moons. Peter Munch (Solingen)is credited with these under his name but a footnote also suggests these were not sword makers marks but applied purely as Talisman and quite at random. What may be seen on typical blades at thread are occasional locally applied marks perhaps to raise the price? On the other hand trade blades in the typical profile with heavy back blade and three deep fullers may well all originally have been star marked in Solingen. Other weapons must have also been so stamped...see below. What is certain about the silver decoration on the example scabbard is its Yemeni origin as this is typical sand cast low quality silver often seen on Yemeni work. Jim...Regarding the Big Dipper...The Plough or The Great Bear ...URSA MAJOR … I have avoided that but note its Chinese name and as you say the 7 wells etc and will place a post covering that situation but just to keep the two so called seven star constellations separate for the moment... Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 26th June 2019 at 08:52 PM.

27th June 2019, 10:09 PM	#11
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	[SIZE=4][SIZE=7][SIZE=6]Here an example of a completely different constellation The Plough or Big Dipper or Great Bear or URSA MAJOR but from the Chinese perspective. This star group famous as the pointer to Polaris or The North Star... So below a Ming Dynasty Chinese sword with the main stars shaped in formation and inscribed on the blade top left.~ Naturally there are many interpretations of Ursa Major and although I am asked about the Chinese ..at the same time there are other fascinating accounts including Hindu and even North American Indian concepts worth viewing at https://howlingpixel.com/i-en/Ursa_Major Staying with the Chinese concept please see https://www.chinasage.info/stars.htm from which I quote Quote'' The Great Bear is split into two constellations and is the seat of divine justice. The ‘Seven Stars’ in China can refer to sun; moon and the five major planets but also to Ursa Major ➚ (the Northern Dipper or Plow or Great Bear). The Great Bear appears directly overhead at times over parts of China and was therefore considered the center of the heavens. Known as 北斗 Běi dǒu ('Northern cup') in China it was represented as a red faced god who determining death and plays chess with the Southern Dipper. The seven stars of the dipper are important in Daoism and are often shown as august figures in pictures who can bring long life and wealth. In the ‘Flying Star’ system of Feng Shui it is these stars that determine good fortune. The Dipper has been used in the West to quickly find the pole star but the Chinese used other pairs of stars to find it, for example the stars in the constellation of Orion".Unquote Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 27th June 2019 at 10:55 PM.

20th June 2019, 09:57 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Agree 100%

20th June 2019, 10:07 PM	#4
Wodimi Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 75	thanks friends, that was quick. With this help I found also an old thread with a similar sword. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15084

22nd June 2019, 02:52 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Further recognition for an excellent research note by Jim on this subject of the star cluster on blades ...The entries on Schimmelbusch markings from Bezdek (2000). Neatly tying down the issue. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.