German Executioner Sword Marks 16th century Solingen Maker Marks Blades

[theswordcollector]

Hello dear friends and fellow collectors,

I recently aquired two rare swords for my collection late 16th century early 17th century 1590-1610. They are both made in Solingen . The short sword reads in Latin I am made in Solingen on both sides of the blade the other (executioner) has what looks like the mark of Johannes Wundes W with a cross and orb ? Could anyone please pin point or id these marks with as smith or dater if possible? 1.The short sword also has a circle with a tower stamp. Then executioner also has on the other side the numbers 1.8.8.8. like medieval numerology. I belive it traslates to Creator or Lord/ Christ. I would be grateful if anyone has any information. Thank you

[Jim McDougall]

Glad to have you with us!
Most interesting markings, but would it be possible to see each sword in entirety? It helps to see markings in the context of the weapon they are found in, much the same as with translating inscriptions.

It is often important to better understand 'executioners' swords, which were typically bearing swords or swords of state in many cases, though of course there were indeed some which were used in the capacity implied. These were in fact most often from Germany. The 1.8.8.8. numbers were of course not indicative of date but often coded ciphers representing usually acrostics with key phrases, invocations or slogans. The more commonly seen 1441 and 1414 are examples of this.
The majuscule W and cross and orb seem curiously applied in unusual style.

I am trying to better see what the stamp at the forte on the short sword might be, it looks like a crowned figure head. It seems unusual to see ME FECIT SOLINGEN applied in that configuration and on both sides of the blade without a makers name. The quadrefoil crosses at the right with the closing 'anchor' type device are intriguing and like many of these variations of blade markings can be found in many configurations. Most of these are not confined to a single maker or workshop but seem generally adopted in a collective manner.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by theswordcollector

... I recently aquired two rare swords for my collection late 16th century early 17th century 1590-1610...

Congratulations .
Will you be posting the entire image of both swords ? It would be most interesting .

[Jim McDougall]

Actually as far as I know the Wundes group typically used variations of the kings head, but am unaware of this superimposed type W, and the cross and orb was widely used. In one instance the cross and orb are aligned with Peter Kull, and I think another instance cannot recall at the moment.
This style W was used by Wolf Paller (1552-83) but was topped with a P (Bezdek p.150).

[Jim McDougall]

Note to my previous post, apparantly these superimposed W marks did seem to have variants and according to Cronau (1885) number 32 cross and orb mark is attributed to Wundes, the W incorporated into the mark. This is of course quite apart from these marks shown on the blade of #2 but suggests plausible variant.
The 1 8 8 8 numbers are likely gemetrics for acrostic or sometimes sacerdotal phrase or invocation.
Still would help to see the whole sword.

[theswordcollector]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Note to my previous post, apparantly these superimposed W marks did seem to have variants and according to Cronau (1885) number 32 cross and orb mark is attributed to Wundes, the W incorporated into the mark. This is of course quite apart from these marks shown on the blade of #2 but suggests plausible variant.
The 1 8 8 8 numbers are likely gemetrics for acrostic or sometimes sacerdotal phrase or invocation.
Still would help to see the whole sword.

Here are photos of the swords. I would like to thank you guys for taking the time to discuss these pieces . I was thinking Wundes also but there is no knights head I can see stamped on this blade? Their marks did vary as many black smiths worked under their masters through the sword making process. The same priciple with Japanese swords. The sword is very good quality for the period and forged well.

[theswordcollector]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Note to my previous post, apparantly these superimposed W marks did seem to have variants and according to Cronau (1885) number 32 cross and orb mark is attributed to Wundes, the W incorporated into the mark. This is of course quite apart from these marks shown on the blade of #2 but suggests plausible variant.
The 1 8 8 8 numbers are likely gemetrics for acrostic or sometimes sacerdotal phrase or invocation.
Still would help to see the whole sword.

here they are :-)

[fernando]

Great piece you got there. I dream of having one

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by theswordcollector

Here are photos of the swords. I would like to thank you guys for taking the time to discuss these pieces . I was thinking Wundes also but there is no knights head I can see stamped on this blade? Their marks did vary as many black smiths worked under their masters through the sword making process. The same priciple with Japanese swords. The sword is very good quality for the period and forged well.

Thank you very much for the full photos of these two outstanding examples!
As you note, there were apprentices and varying workmen in the shops which can easily account for variations in spelling in inscriptions as well as deviations in markings. Many markings and inscriptions were popularized within the industry and used rather collectively with apparant favorites with certain makers shops.