Spanish ?? I.D. Help Needed

[Rikkn]

Need help with this one, I think it is Spanish. The guy I got it from about a year ago had some story about Cortes era explorer use. In pretty good condition, blade is 28" long. I took several pictures of the markings on the better side of the blade.

[Rikkn]

More pictures. One of the marks looks like an anchor, my wife thinks it is a little stick person thing. Letters look like a "T", "O", Maybe an "M" & "L" in there too.

[laEspadaAncha]

I think the vestigial pas d'ane would indicate a time frame (18th C.) much later than Cortes (16th C.). The markings you describe sound like a familiar makers mark... Try searching under "maker's marks" in the European arms & armor forum - there's a thread that documents many of the marks of the period.

Speaking of which, you might want to request one of the mods move your thread to the European weapons forum...

ETA: In looking through another book, it would seem other style elements, e.g., the symmetrical clamshell guard, might date this as earlier - maybe mid-late 17th Century?

[laEspadaAncha]

I have it on good authority from a friend who viewed your photos that the sword is most likely of 18th Century origin (as indicated by the striated clamshells and hilt/pommel style) and is indeed Spanish (though he is of the opinion the blade was likely produced in Solingen). In particular, he is of the rather certain this is of the Spanish Colonial style associated with the Spanish Main and which is often attributed to Brazil. In fact, he helped identify a group of forty of these from a shipwreck off the coast of Panama several decades ago. Hope this helps.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Rikkn

More pictures. One of the marks looks like an anchor, my wife thinks it is a little stick person thing. Letters look like a "T", "O", Maybe an "M" & "L" in there too.

Hi Rikkn,
Yes, the anchor is an usual decor in Spanish (and not only) swords.
The T and the O seem to be followed by an L; these are usual initials for Toledo, a famous Spanish edged weapons center.
Let's move this thread to the European weapons forum; you may have further input on your sword in that section

[Atlantia]

Rikkn,
Can we see a picture of the entire sword?
Proportions can be helpful in estimating a timeframe.

[celtan]

Might be a spanish blade married to a foreign hilt, or it could be completely Spanish. All that can be said for certain is it follows spanish style. It has a fully functional pas dáne, which places it from late 1670 t0 1770.

Heck, even the blade could be german made, as Solingen et al made good quality copies, including the now famous running-wolf mark from Maestre Perrillo, which paradoxically became Solingen's trademark.

The Toledo inscription is seen in various motifs, from Toledo Me Fecit, Toletum Me Fecit, En Toledo, En Toleto, En To, En Tol. The stop mark comes in all sizes and shapes, often a cross over a half circle or orb, and sometimes even a group of three crosses.

The clamshell small guard seems to say to me ~1720. The metallic grip may be a later replacement.

This one is a dainty thing, Cortes swords were brutish affairs made for cutting and slashing. For work, not show.

Congrats on your acquisition.

[Hotspur]

I thought the running wolf (master doggie) was a guild mark for Passau and virtually discontinued once Solingen became the source of many blades. Ready steel from the area being a prime motivation for blade making (and a lot more in time) there.

Cheers

GC

[fernando]

Hi Manolete ,
I guess i follow GC's reasoning.
The mark adopted by Julián del Rey was a doggy (perrillo), not so similar in shape to a (Passau) wolf.
Don't think both symbols could be one only .

.

[Rikkn]

I looked through the doggy marks also, what does it all mean ? I will take pictures of the whole sword & scabbard & post them in a little while.

[Rikkn]

More pictures. Blade is 28" long, overall sword is 34.5 " long. Blade tapers from 5/8 " to 1/8" just before tip. Scabbard is 30" long, has the number 19 over the screw near opening.

[cornelistromp]

Hi,

I don't see any running wolf mark, but see clearly the woording TOLEDO,
with a proper 17thC E and proper 17thC D.
the long olive shaped pommel together with the non functional pas d'ane ( 18thc size, you will break your finger if you put one through the pas d'ane) together with the rococo diamond shaped chiseling at the pommel foot and spirally fluted grip as seen on 1750 silver hilted small swords makes me date date the hilt in the second part of the 18thC, 1750-1800. the blade is probably 100 years older.

with the shell guards it can be a late 18thC (Spanish?) marine officer small sword.

Best,

[fernando]

Very good and solid impressions Jasper.
By the way, the mentioning of the running wolf mark by Celtan was only a part of his dissertation ... not that he was seeing it.
The scabbard must be a much later addition, right?

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by fernando

Very good and solid impressions Jasper.
By the way, the mentioning of the running wolf mark by Celtan was only a part of his dissertation ... not that he was seeing it.
The scabbard must be a much later addition, right?

The scabbard looks decidedly 19thC, later part at that.

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

The scabbard is obviously late 19th C.

The use of the Wolf/Dog by spanish armourers as mark of a quality blade in the 15th C, long before Passau and subsequently Solingen, is very well documented. It is also well established the presence of both German armourers in Toledo, and later that of Spanish Armourers in Passau and Solingen.

The early armourers were mostly spanish muslims, like famed Julian del Rey. It is said that they couldn't have used a dog as a quality symbol, because in their culture, a dog was considered a dirty, lower type of animal. It is thus more likely that the symbol represented instead a wolf, and that subsequent folklore instead denigrated it to a "perrillo", or literally a "doggy". The Spanish do have an ingrained tendency to mock everything.

In fact, Don Enrique de Leguina states in his work that the German and Spanish marks could not be distinguished from each other: "Lleva la marca, rellena de cobre, llamada en España del «perrillo», y en Alemania «del lobo»: la primera atribuida al célebre espadero español Julián del Rey, y la segunda a espaderos de Passau y de Solingen, sin que hasta ahora haya sido posible distinguir en absoluto unas de otras"

Julian del Rey shows this mark only on his _cutting_ swords, it has been proposed that the mark itself was originally a quality blade seal applied by the Sword Makers Guild. Indeed, Julian's usual trademark was a cross.

Please refer to . LAMARCA DEL PERRILLO DEL ESPADERO ESPAÑOL
JULIAN DEL REY by J. J. Rodriguez Lorente.

Regarding the pas d'ane, I have owned similar swords to this one and theirs were fully functional, allowing me to insert my large fingers trough their openings, stablizing my grip on the sword. From my end, this one looks identical to those.

BTW, olive type pommels were used in Spain since the mid 16th C. The blade "feels" 17th C to me.

The double clamshell guard was seen in Spain from around the times of Gustavus Adolphus (Mid to late 17th C), my suspicion being they were introduced as an adaptation from the german / Pappenheimer's guard.

Taking everything into account, plus all the spanish swords I have handled at museums, I'd still place this one around 1720.

Last but not least, our "Maestre Perrillo" was only one of many spanish armourers using the doggy/wolf mark. Rememeber, in Spain there were about 15 major armouries making swords. Just check the enclosed image.

'Nando, glad that you're following my dissertation..!

: )

[Hotspur]

Modern fencers and students of smallsword play have mentioned the small pas d'ane as perhaps vestigal but that the grip of a smallsword was meant to use pinching between thumb and forefinger for steearge. This has borne out my own ad hoc experiences in manipulating the hilts of quite a few seemingly uncomfortable hilts but rotating the sword 90 degrees puts the tillers of the pas d'ane or indeed none at all in the manner of spadroons at better ease especially with shorter grips. Hard to describe and I am probably not conveying it well. They are not meant to be finger rings, in the sense many suggest.

non functional pas d'ane ( 18thc size, you will break your finger if you put one through the pas d'ane)

Thanks also for the additional running wolf marks and considerations. As the mark clearly shows up on blades back to the 14th century (we see these on cruciform types and larger bastards with inlay in latten and gold) more information is certainly better than not enough. The wolf is also regarded in the coat of arms for Passau. I do also have some notes regarding Solihngen and the migration there by the smiths while discontinuing the mark,as its use had been local. There is a somewhat simlar discussion of the wolf recently here. My own thoughts and regard of the uses and variety that turn have no partisan interests implied or inferred.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12289

The scabbard a later addition, absolutely.

Cheers

GC

Another earlier discussion elsewhere on the wolf


http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79247

Old Herman Historica page

http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...db=kat49_A.txt

Another as a PS

http://ejmas.com/jwma/articles/2000/...ville_0100.htm

It is undoubtedly Ewart Oakeshott and his writings that influences a great many (including myself) but I am also wide open for other source work while remaining as objective as possible.

[celtan]

Hi G,

Adding to your interesting post on grips

Indeed, fencing styles do differ, but I do recall my fencing instructor showing me how to steady the grip by placing the index finger hooked _through_ the front small-sword's pas dáne, and guiding the blade's tip with the small finger. Of course, the modern fencing epee is grabbed as you describe, palm upwards.

Then, when you go to the Spanish School, with its high pommel/low tip classic stance, the grip again differs, there you really hold the very short grip with the index and middle fingers on each side of the ricasso beneath the cup's guardapolvo hooked over the cross guard, and the thumb held diagonally close to the guard's crux. Then, the small and heart fingers grab the large pommel for both aim and grip. Thus, the grip is shorter.

And if you go to a katana/daito, you virtually grip the tsuka with mostly the heart and small fingers... of the lower hand!.

Different strokes for different people..?

BTW,IIRC the doggie/wolfie motif was often inlaid with copper/brass.

BR, M

[Rikkn]

Overwhelmingly cool information guys, but in simple terms, what have I got here ??

[cornelistromp]

Late 18thc spanish small sword.

[fernando]

... with an earlier blade and a later scabbard

[celtan]

Hi R,
Can you take a lateral pic to confirm whether the pda is fucntional or not? (The 2 rings under the shell guard). That is the crux of the matter in the exchange between F, G and I. If its nonfuctional, the hilt is post 1770s.

BTW F, the hilt doths seem to complement the shell design...

BRs

M : )

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Late 18thc spanish small sword.

Originally Posted by fernando

... with an earlier blade and a later scabbard

What they said.

Might also add that based on similar examples handled by a friend, your example is of likely (Latin American) Spanish Colonial origin.

[celtan]

Hey! Just noticed the first pic is as lateral view as can be, the pas dáne IS functional, ergo, the sword is pre-1770.

The cast grip look very similar to several from the 1720-1780 as appear in Neuman's "Swords from the American Revolution".

LBNL, in Wither's book, there appears one English sword with several similarities, dating to the 1650s.

Sadly, no smallsword I have seen so far shows an identical guard . OTOH, it is similarly shaped to the Spanish M1720, although smaller.

To me, everything says 18th C.

BR, M

[M ELEY]

[QUOTE=celtan]
Sadly, no smallsword I have seen so far shows an identical guard . OTOH, it is similarly shaped to the Spanish M1720, although smaller.

These shell guards are more common on Spanish colonial bilbo types in the New World. We see them on that Brazilian cutlass we've discussed before, complete with striations. Maybe not an identical guard on a smallsword, per say, but bilobate guards on smallswords are encountered. Beautiful piece, BTW. Screams nautical/pirate/Caribbean-

Here's the old link with the Brazilian shell cutlass-
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=pirate+swords

[M ELEY]

Well, that didn't work. Anyway, it's under the past post of "Pirate swords and weapons 2".

[celtan]

Could it be related to a pilgrimage made to St. James`(San Yago /Santiago Cathedral..? The shell motif is widely known in the christian world.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by celtan

... The early armourers were mostly spanish muslims, like famed Julian del Rey. It is said that they couldn't have used a dog as a quality symbol, because in their culture, a dog was considered a dirty, lower type of animal. It is thus more likely that the symbol represented instead a wolf, and that subsequent folklore instead denigrated it to a "perrillo", or literally a "doggy"...

Well, the number of interpretations was quite vast; a dog, a wolf, a goat and eventually a lion. It all depended from the author's point of view. After all, the drawing shown by Palomar in his nomina was his own hand copy of the animal engraved by Del Rey in (some of ?) his swords; it didn't have to be so faithfull to the original.
Tell me Don Iravedra, do you know an article on this subject written by Germán Dueñas Beraiz ? It is quite interesting.
A pity is written in Castillian, not so practical to be perused by non Spanish speaking members.
I have it in PDF format; too heavy to attach here. But if you wish, i can email it to you ... and to those others also interested, obviously.

.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually the 'perillo', with reference to the discussion on this rapier, is a red herring .
I do recall the Beraiz work, and thank you Fernando for sharing it with me several years ago in work I was doing researching the running wolf. The connections between the well known Passau wolf and the mark seen on some of Julians blades, though like the wide variation in the running wolf, it can be seen in many forms, often even rampant which the running wolf is not.

Getting to this interesting rapier, it appears to me to be a courtly rapier made in Continental smallsword style of the latter 18th century, and with the scallop shell guard of hilt forms consigned to Spains colonies in the Americas. As noted, these type of shellguards are well known on espadas from Brazilian centers, as well as other port regions of the Spanish trade sphere.

These scallop shell guards with similar striations are seen on espadas provenanced to Brazil as late as mid 19th century, but are also known on espada anchas from the Santa Fe region c.1780s and other similar arming type swords of similar period.

The blade is similar to Solingen made trade blades for Spanish export to the colonies from the early part of the 18th century, possibly even earlier. These were intended for the hilting and remounting of the traditional rapiers long favored by Spanish gentry and worn much longer in the colonies than on the Continent. The hilt resembles guards seen on Spanish hunting type hangers from the 17th century, which also were favored for colonial wear in the same manner and well illustrated by the development of the espada ancha swords worn on the frontiers of New Spain.

Naturally with the proud traditions of Spain reflected by the gentry of the colonies in thier older style weapons would quite likely carry motif which recalled the military orders of chivalry , with the scallop shell of St. James of Compostela being foremost. Spains Order of St. James of Compostela and its equivilent in Portugal the Order of St. James of the Sword, were two of such orders.

Just added painting of St. James by Rembrandt 1661 with scallop shell worn on his shoulder, symbol of pilgrims to Compostela.

[celtan]

Hi Jim,

I have seen many sword guards with the shell motif, but they are usually single pieces mounted on the frontal aspect. This one is bilobated, with one shell (frontal) larger than the other. Do the ones you guys refer to as colonial share this particular detail?

Nandinho: Thanks, I do have a .pdf of Gladius XXIV, 2004, pp. 209-260
INTRODUCCIÓN AL ESTUDIO TIPOLÓGICO DE LAS ESPADAS ESPAÑOLAS: SIGLOS XVI-XVII.

Regarding the wolfie/doggie motif, It well might have been more common in those times than we think, and in fact it may be a mark of quality. I recall having once seen a very old shield belonging to my family, showing a rampant wolfie/doggie, red over green or viceversa.

Whether it's a good or bad quality mark I can't say, but please don't ask my wife...

: )

M

[fernando]

Originally Posted by celtan

... NandinhoThanks, I do have a .pdf of Gladius XXIV, 2004, pp. 209-260
INTRODUCCIÓN AL ESTUDIO TIPOLÓGICO DE LAS ESPADAS ESPAÑOLAS: SIGLOS XVI-XVII...

I have that one in my 'favorites'; the author is the same, but the stuff is different ... specifically concentrated on Julia Del Rey.
Sure you don't want a copy?
You don't know what your'e missing