Can Anyone Help ID this Keris ?

Boswego · 27th January 2005, 06:31 PM

As a complete novice in the field of swords-I wondered if anyone might have an idea as to where this Keris is from and what it was used for.Thanks Very Much-Boswego[Keris1.jpg][Keris2.jpg][Keris3.jpg][Keris4.jpg]

P.S.-I'm having problems w/ my antiquated windows98 and javascript re attachments-i hope the pics shop up.

Boswego · 27th January 2005, 06:38 PM

Sorry,dont seem to be able to attach the Keris pics-when i hit the 'manage attachments' bar i get the old 'the page cannot be displayed' message ('detect network settings' prompt doesnt work either).

Andrew · 27th January 2005, 11:45 PM

Boswego, try hosting them on www.photobucket.com or you can email them to me at awinston@aol.com and I'll post them.

Sang Keris · 28th January 2005, 02:35 PM

.. i'm courious...

Andrew · 28th January 2005, 09:38 PM

Here you go, Boswego.

This is a Moro Kris from the Phillipines. I know very, very little about these, but others here should be able to help you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boswego

Here's all I can say about this piece- 25" total length,20 1/2" blade length,5 1/4" hilt-handle length.The blade does'nt appear to be damascened,or so heavily polished all striations were obliterated...

I also wanted to know if someone out there might have a suitable scabbard for the Keris.

Federico · 28th January 2005, 10:00 PM

Maranao pre-19th century used for fighting...well...Maranao if we believe the trunk theory, has the nice Maranao bulge. Pre-19th century well again back to Bob's book, separate gangya would in the very least indicate pre 1930 (one date to feature I am dead sure about), possibly with considerable age if we consider wider spaced luks to be an older phenomena. Oh well...somedays I figure what do we really know about these things. There are alot of theories, but where is the proof. Its nice to move forward, and have lots to say about weaponry, but why is it accurate? Based on what? Nice kris by the way. I like the perabot features, the double fullering, and the overall dapur of the blade (well to steal terms from the keris guys). Very graceful piece, looks like it has a story to tell.

BluErf · 28th January 2005, 11:35 PM

Hi Frederico, when you say wider-spaced luks, do you mean the luks are 'longer'? But in this kris, the first 4 luks are compressed into the lower half of the blade, and they look pretty 'cramped'. Or do you mean the 5th luk, which is stretched out?

Just clarifying. Thanks.

Federico · 28th January 2005, 11:53 PM

Hello BluErf...because I am blanking on a good way to explain it, compare the spacing of the luks of Boswego's kris to the kris in these pictures. Particularly the top kris is the newest. As you can see, as time progresses the compression of luk spacing becomes much tighter, with some more modern kris, particularly after 1900 having extreme numbers of tightly spaced luks.

Rick · 29th January 2005, 12:15 AM

As opposed to :

BluErf · 29th January 2005, 12:57 AM

Ah, a few pictures say a few thousand words.

Thanks Fredrico and Rick.

But just an observation -- as the number of luks increases, the wavelength would have to decrease. It must, or the blade will have to lengthen, which is not always practical. So are we also talking about newer blades having more luks?

In keris world, there is this belief that the more number of luks a keris has, the more powerful or exalted it is. I read somewhere about this warrior 'threatening' asked another person if he should unsheath his keris which has 47 luks -- which would lead to bloodshed. (How the empu manage to squeeze that many luks into a 13-15 inch blade is a complete mystery to me).

So as time goes by, "luk inflation" takes place as people want krises with more and more luks. That may contribute to the reduction in spacing between the luks, maybe? Just thinking...

Btw, in keris world, there is also this phenomena of "luk inflation", and not only that, the amplitude of luk increases. i.e. the older pieces have more gentle undulating luks, the newer ones have more roundish, exaggerated luks. Where the luks are many (>17), the luks almost look triangle-lish.

Rick · 29th January 2005, 01:15 AM

Back to the piece at hand .
I'm a little suspicious about these seemingly archaic blades that have such a shallow and rudimentary sogokan , pecetan and janur ( using Frey's Indo terms ) .

Compare the pictures hosted by Andrew with the other archaic Kris posted by myself .

I've always wondered about this .

Boswego · 29th January 2005, 01:17 AM

Thanks for all the great knowledge and feedback.So from what I gather this is a Phillipine Moro Kris -poss a pre-19th Cent piece from the Marano Tribe/Province. What,generally,were these types of shortswords used for,and could I possibly locate a correct scabbard for it ?
(I'm a woodworker,and w/the correct native materials could fabricate one providing I had accurate ethnographic photos/measurements).

Andrew · 29th January 2005, 01:57 AM

Boswego, the Moro kris is a fighting weapon.

Could someone post up some scabbard pix for us to look at?

nechesh · 29th January 2005, 04:27 AM

Rick! How many times do i have to warn you not to post that gorgeous kris anymore!

drool, drool,drool, drool

Federico · 29th January 2005, 05:34 AM

Rick, Boswego's kris, and the middle kris in my pic are not true archaic style such as yours, hence the difference. They represent a mid-point between the Archaic, and the late 19th/early20th groups. Angle of the Gangya is 45 degrees, blades are larger, dapur more modern (hmm hard to describe wish I was able to post more pics), as you noted the arrowhead region is shallower. At least thats how I like to think about it. 3 identifiable ages of Moro kris, pre-1930. Archaic (such as yours), mid-point (Boswego's and the middle kris in my group), and 19th/early20th century (the vast majority of Kris we discuss here). Anyways, along with Nechesh, I must admit everytime you post that kris of yours I need a mop to clean up all the drool

BluErf. Exactly and kinda.

The story Ive always been told, was that older kris had larger deeper luks. As kris start to get larger, the luks shallow out and start becoming tighter in placement (Mindanao kris tending to have shallower luks that Sulu kris). Soooo...the idea that luk inflation played into this phenomena does sound very plausible. Another factor could be the introduction of greater amounts and higher quality steel in later periods (Spanish rails, US wagon springs, etc... in later periods vs. Chinese Iron pots, British wrought iron balls, etc... in earlier), perhaps made a less intensive and more maleable working material. What Ive always been told, while a kris with a high luk count may have more power, only those individuals with great personal power would be eligible to wield them, on the supernatural as well as practical level. Lotsa luks, supposedly harder to cut with (I dunno Ive always had fun manipulating my higher luk kris, but then again Ive never had to manipulate through actual intended mediums). Hmm...I have the feeling I went off on a tangent, and didnt actually make a good response. I apologize if Im coming from way out in left field.

MABAGANI · 29th January 2005, 06:06 AM

The blade looks Maranao but the hilt is typical Maguindanao, maybe from south Lake Lanao, between the two sultanates...nice form

Boswego · 29th January 2005, 07:27 AM

Frederico-So this Kris dates roughly between 1800 and the 1890's ? P.S.-Found some good maintenance/restoration tips on Your site.

Federico · 29th January 2005, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boswego

Frederico-So this Kris dates roughly between 1800 and the 1890's ? P.S.-Found some good maintenance/restoration tips on Your site.

Hello Boswego, well as I mentioned in the other thread, the dating, even the tribal assignment is very hot topic for debate. However, if we went by the theories in Bob Cato's book, I would say your kris would be roughly in the first half of the 19th century. Now of course, that is if the dating theory is correct. It could of course be much older, if the theories do indeed prove to be wrong. Anyways I am glad you found my site useful. Unfortunately I have not updated it for many years. Keep meaning too, but somehow other things keep popping up.

Boswego · 29th January 2005, 11:48 PM

Frederico-Now I have to find some of that Violin Wax/Oil You mentioned in Your Restoration/Maintenence Link.

Federico · 30th January 2005, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boswego

Frederico-Now I have to find some of that Violin Wax/Oil You mentioned in Your Restoration/Maintenence Link.

Ya know that is one of the things I keep wanting to update. Skip the Violin Varnish, unless it is in very bad condition (eg. big cracks, very dry). If the finish is intact, you can get away with just pledge or other antique furniture polish. The Varnish is more applicable for really poor condition pieces that need to be re-done. Useful for me, because I buy mainly only junky pieces, but if you buy quality, well you dont have the same problem.

Battara · 30th January 2005, 08:48 PM

If it a nice piece, you could use "Renaissance Wax". Good for leather, wood, metal. I use it. (I sound like a cheap comercial

).

nechesh · 30th January 2005, 09:30 PM

Geez Jose, first a movie and now commercial endorsements! What next, the Soaps?

DhenTal · 30th January 2005, 09:56 PM

is the Boswegos kriss is new piece ? I like absolutly yes

Rick · 30th January 2005, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DhenTal

is the Boswegos kriss is new piece ? I like absolutly yes

No it isn't DhenTal .
It is in all probability from the 19th century .
I like it a lot too .

Federico · 30th January 2005, 11:40 PM

Ive become very enamoured with pledge lately for wood. Nothing to harsh, safe for many types of finish, and above all cheap and relatively easy to get. Ive been meaning to give RenWax a try, but Ive become far too absent minded in the care of my blades.

I keep telling myself one day Ill go through everything, and fix stuff. Oh well...

Boswego · 31st January 2005, 07:25 PM

I've had a late 19th Century Meiji Tobbako Ire (sp?-Meiji Japanese Tobbacco Purse/Pouch).It's crafted of leather,mixed metals,ivory,etc. I want to freshen up the leather -so I check out the Civil War collectors,the Smithsonian Q&A , the Antique Forums,et al.Restoration,being a science and an art, is a witheringly confusing field.When You include Museum Curators in the discussion,You have to try to forecast the stability of a product into the next millenia.Luckily,I don't have to worry too much about My pouch,I dont think it has overwhelming historical significance. However,if I ever unearth a Leigonnaires Helmet in old town Jerusalem.....

27th January 2005, 06:31 PM	#1
Boswego Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 23	Can Anyone Help ID this Keris ? As a complete novice in the field of swords-I wondered if anyone might have an idea as to where this Keris is from and what it was used for.Thanks Very Much-Boswego[Keris1.jpg][Keris2.jpg][Keris3.jpg][Keris4.jpg] P.S.-I'm having problems w/ my antiquated windows98 and javascript re attachments-i hope the pics shop up.

27th January 2005, 06:38 PM	#2
Boswego Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 23	Sorry (no pics) re Keris Sorry,dont seem to be able to attach the Keris pics-when i hit the 'manage attachments' bar i get the old 'the page cannot be displayed' message ('detect network settings' prompt doesnt work either).

28th January 2005, 11:53 PM	#8
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Hello BluErf...because I am blanking on a good way to explain it, compare the spacing of the luks of Boswego's kris to the kris in these pictures. Particularly the top kris is the newest. As you can see, as time progresses the compression of luk spacing becomes much tighter, with some more modern kris, particularly after 1900 having extreme numbers of tightly spaced luks. Attached Images

31st January 2005, 07:25 PM	#26
Boswego Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 23	Evaluating Restoration Supplies I've had a late 19th Century Meiji Tobbako Ire (sp?-Meiji Japanese Tobbacco Purse/Pouch).It's crafted of leather,mixed metals,ivory,etc. I want to freshen up the leather -so I check out the Civil War collectors,the Smithsonian Q&A , the Antique Forums,et al.Restoration,being a science and an art, is a witheringly confusing field.When You include Museum Curators in the discussion,You have to try to forecast the stability of a product into the next millenia.Luckily,I don't have to worry too much about My pouch,I dont think it has overwhelming historical significance. However,if I ever unearth a Leigonnaires Helmet in old town Jerusalem.....

27th January 2005, 11:45 PM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Boswego, try hosting them on www.photobucket.com or you can email them to me at awinston@aol.com and I'll post them.

28th January 2005, 02:35 PM	#4
Sang Keris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Indonesia Posts: 46	.. i'm courious...

28th January 2005, 10:00 PM	#6
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Maranao pre-19th century used for fighting...well...Maranao if we believe the trunk theory, has the nice Maranao bulge. Pre-19th century well again back to Bob's book, separate gangya would in the very least indicate pre 1930 (one date to feature I am dead sure about), possibly with considerable age if we consider wider spaced luks to be an older phenomena. Oh well...somedays I figure what do we really know about these things. There are alot of theories, but where is the proof. Its nice to move forward, and have lots to say about weaponry, but why is it accurate? Based on what? Nice kris by the way. I like the perabot features, the double fullering, and the overall dapur of the blade (well to steal terms from the keris guys). Very graceful piece, looks like it has a story to tell.

28th January 2005, 11:35 PM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Frederico, when you say wider-spaced luks, do you mean the luks are 'longer'? But in this kris, the first 4 luks are compressed into the lower half of the blade, and they look pretty 'cramped'. Or do you mean the 5th luk, which is stretched out? Just clarifying. Thanks.

29th January 2005, 12:15 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	As opposed to :

29th January 2005, 12:57 AM	#10
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Ah, a few pictures say a few thousand words. Thanks Fredrico and Rick. But just an observation -- as the number of luks increases, the wavelength would have to decrease. It must, or the blade will have to lengthen, which is not always practical. So are we also talking about newer blades having more luks? In keris world, there is this belief that the more number of luks a keris has, the more powerful or exalted it is. I read somewhere about this warrior 'threatening' asked another person if he should unsheath his keris which has 47 luks -- which would lead to bloodshed. (How the empu manage to squeeze that many luks into a 13-15 inch blade is a complete mystery to me). So as time goes by, "luk inflation" takes place as people want krises with more and more luks. That may contribute to the reduction in spacing between the luks, maybe? Just thinking... Btw, in keris world, there is also this phenomena of "luk inflation", and not only that, the amplitude of luk increases. i.e. the older pieces have more gentle undulating luks, the newer ones have more roundish, exaggerated luks. Where the luks are many (>17), the luks almost look triangle-lish.

29th January 2005, 01:15 AM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Back to the piece at hand . I'm a little suspicious about these seemingly archaic blades that have such a shallow and rudimentary sogokan , pecetan and janur ( using Frey's Indo terms ) . Compare the pictures hosted by Andrew with the other archaic Kris posted by myself . I've always wondered about this .

29th January 2005, 01:17 AM	#12
Boswego Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 23	Thanks for all the great knowledge and feedback.So from what I gather this is a Phillipine Moro Kris -poss a pre-19th Cent piece from the Marano Tribe/Province. What,generally,were these types of shortswords used for,and could I possibly locate a correct scabbard for it ? (I'm a woodworker,and w/the correct native materials could fabricate one providing I had accurate ethnographic photos/measurements).

29th January 2005, 01:57 AM	#13
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Boswego, the Moro kris is a fighting weapon. Could someone post up some scabbard pix for us to look at?

29th January 2005, 04:27 AM	#14
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Rick! How many times do i have to warn you not to post that gorgeous kris anymore! drool, drool,drool, drool

29th January 2005, 05:34 AM	#15
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Rick, Boswego's kris, and the middle kris in my pic are not true archaic style such as yours, hence the difference. They represent a mid-point between the Archaic, and the late 19th/early20th groups. Angle of the Gangya is 45 degrees, blades are larger, dapur more modern (hmm hard to describe wish I was able to post more pics), as you noted the arrowhead region is shallower. At least thats how I like to think about it. 3 identifiable ages of Moro kris, pre-1930. Archaic (such as yours), mid-point (Boswego's and the middle kris in my group), and 19th/early20th century (the vast majority of Kris we discuss here). Anyways, along with Nechesh, I must admit everytime you post that kris of yours I need a mop to clean up all the drool BluErf. Exactly and kinda. The story Ive always been told, was that older kris had larger deeper luks. As kris start to get larger, the luks shallow out and start becoming tighter in placement (Mindanao kris tending to have shallower luks that Sulu kris). Soooo...the idea that luk inflation played into this phenomena does sound very plausible. Another factor could be the introduction of greater amounts and higher quality steel in later periods (Spanish rails, US wagon springs, etc... in later periods vs. Chinese Iron pots, British wrought iron balls, etc... in earlier), perhaps made a less intensive and more maleable working material. What Ive always been told, while a kris with a high luk count may have more power, only those individuals with great personal power would be eligible to wield them, on the supernatural as well as practical level. Lotsa luks, supposedly harder to cut with (I dunno Ive always had fun manipulating my higher luk kris, but then again Ive never had to manipulate through actual intended mediums). Hmm...I have the feeling I went off on a tangent, and didnt actually make a good response. I apologize if Im coming from way out in left field.

29th January 2005, 06:06 AM	#16
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	The blade looks Maranao but the hilt is typical Maguindanao, maybe from south Lake Lanao, between the two sultanates...nice form

29th January 2005, 07:27 AM	#17
Boswego Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 23	Frederico-So this Kris dates roughly between 1800 and the 1890's ? P.S.-Found some good maintenance/restoration tips on Your site.

29th January 2005, 11:48 PM	#19
Boswego Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 23	Frederico-Now I have to find some of that Violin Wax/Oil You mentioned in Your Restoration/Maintenence Link.

30th January 2005, 08:48 PM	#21
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	If it a nice piece, you could use "Renaissance Wax". Good for leather, wood, metal. I use it. (I sound like a cheap comercial ).

30th January 2005, 09:30 PM	#22
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Geez Jose, first a movie and now commercial endorsements! What next, the Soaps?

30th January 2005, 09:56 PM	#23
DhenTal Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 20	is the Boswegos kriss is new piece ? I like absolutly yes

30th January 2005, 11:40 PM	#25
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Ive become very enamoured with pledge lately for wood. Nothing to harsh, safe for many types of finish, and above all cheap and relatively easy to get. Ive been meaning to give RenWax a try, but Ive become far too absent minded in the care of my blades. I keep telling myself one day Ill go through everything, and fix stuff. Oh well...