Dutch - VOC Blade - HELP! needed

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody,

Can anyone help me with info (manufacturer, dimensions, pictures etc.) about VOC blades made around 1602-1606?

Sorry if it is not the right topic for this forum.

Thank you.

[fernando]

Pardon my gnorance,
what does VOC mean ?

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Fernando,
VOC= Vereenigde Oost-Indisch Compagnie.

Good question Amuk. I'm not sure offhand about blades marked that early, the greatest preponderance of VOC blades seem to be from the 18th century, especially around 1760's. It seems that a great deal of the examples of kastane are mounted with these marked VOC blades and in that period. I always tried to find one so marked, but they are pretty much all collected and staying tight!

Can you tell us more of what your interest is? Maybe we might get better idea of where to look for info.

all the best
Jim

[Rick]

Don't say it Jim .........

[Jim McDougall]

Rick! I burst out laughing on that one!!!!!LOL JUDL!!!
I've been plowing through stuff for hours and once as I gasped, the forbidden thread came up on the google search I had on.
I think that will be forever the thread of all time.


As I regain my composure, I will share with Amuk what I have found


Apparantly little detailed information exists on arms and armor production in the Netherlands, but centers existed in Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent and Tournai in Flanders. It seems that they did import large portion of arms and armor from Italy and Germany.
ref: "Famous Makers and European Centers of Arms and Armor Production", Dirk H. Breiding, Metropolitan Museum of Art, "Timeline of Art History" 2000.

There would have been considerable examples of Spanish and Italian rapier forms c.1600, and for more military use, these were primarily the German imports. These would have been heavy bladed 'Sinclair sabre' types of sabres with shellguards and varying forms of developing basket style hilts, some with heavy straight blades.
In "Blanke Wapens:Nederlandse slag-en steekwapens sinds 1600" J.P.Puype, 1981, some of these are discussed, however since my Dutch is 'nada' I cant relay much.

As far as the VOC, the firm was officially formed in 1602, the blades on the swords would not have of course had any particular regulation as far as I would imagine. The officers of course would have worn most likely rapiers as noted of Italian or Spanish form, while other ranks or individuals would have used the military swords of the time. I have not yet found at what point the VOC markings might have begun to appear on blades, but I would not expect them to appear as property type stamps until much later, and even then, not on the officers weapons.

FYI....the in house LOL at the beginning here concerns a thread about a VOC sword that just about drove us all nuts over a period of several years! It was the thread that would not die! ....Shaver Kool!! Sorry Rick! I just had to 'splain it'.

All the best,
Jim

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody ,

Jim,
Thank you for your reply.
I am doing this for a friend who doesn't speak English very well.
We share an interest in implements used/adopted/adapted by the Sunda.

Some time ago, he was offered a sword. Apparently, it looked a bit like a Klewang. The handle was rather crude, with a D guard and a brass sheet wrapped over the grip. The blade had 1606 VOC marked on both sides.
He declined the offer, but it has been niggling him ever since ("Was it fake?").

My research has found nothing.

However, I remember, some time back, coming across an article (on the Internet and in Dutch) about the tell-tales of Dutch blades and how to spot a fake. As it was not part of my research at the time, I didn't want to be distracted and moved on.
Now I can no longer find the article. (I should've tagged it when I had the chance).

I hope I have answered your question about my interest.

Thank you again.

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

....the in house LOL at the beginning here concerns a thread about a VOC sword that just about drove us all nuts over a period of several years! It was the thread that would not die! ....Shaver Kool!! ....

Jim

Hullo Jim,

I just read your post.
Thank you again.

Yes, I, too, have been initiated into the quest for the enigmatic 'SHAVER COOL'.(ROTFLPIMP!! ))
As I remember, I tried many different approaches. I finally put it in the ' to be investigated in the not-too-soon future'.
I actually inspected different blades with the same marks.
My last try was to see whether it could've been manufactured by SHAVER GOOL (Both being Germanic names, given the shifting borders at the time and Shaver having evolved from Schaeffer).

Best.

[Henk]

I doubt weapons were marked with the VOC mark in that early period of the VOC.
Most weapons in that period were made in Solingen and assembled in Köln. Also in Luik (Liege) Belgium many weapons were produced.
The VOC had a large private army, but the Dutch soldiers in that time had to buy their own equipment. 75% of the soldiers of the VOC were foreigners. Most of them came from Poland, Sweden, Danmark and Germany.
I don't say that it is impossible that a blade was marked with the VOC mark but it is most unlikely.

Blades with a VOC mark came up in the 18th century. In that period the army of the VOC became more standardized with rules for the equipment.

Amak Murugul,

VOC blades are hard to find and very expensive. Without a picture of the sword it is hard to tell if the sword offered to your friend is a fake but I think he did well by declining the offer.

[M ELEY]

I seem to recall a VOC-marked sword with the talismanic marking 1606 on it even though it was an 18th century sword. Likewise, I know of a smallsword marked with the VOC marking that dates to 1660, a later period than we're discussing, but still 17th century...

[Jim McDougall]

It would be interesting to find some sort of chronological history of the VOC marking as seen on the 18th century blades, maybe a coin catalog might reflect coins that carry the mark. It seems the coins I have seen with the mark are about 1760's much as the blades I have seen. I think Henk is right noting the organization that became more prevalent contributing to the probable reason for more visability of the marks then.

Mark, the smallsword you note sounds most intriguing, but I wonder if the 1606 on the other sword was talismanic, maybe the 1660 was also...like the numbers 1414 and 1441. I forget what they call the rearranged numbers, and can only think of anagram with letters, but you know what I mean.
It seems that on some Dutch swords significant dates might be added noting important events?

I've always thought the Dutch East India VOC markings were really appealing much as those of the British East India Co. but never was lucky enough to find swords with such marks on the blades.

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Pardon my gnorance,
what does VOC mean ?

That is WAY not a word I would associate with you my friend!!!

Jim

[Mark]

I don't know if anyone had tried the Amsterdam Maritime Museum (Scheepvaartmuseum) for information. They appear to be closed until 2010 for renovations, but I expect the people there are still reacheable.

I thought that there was a VOC museum as well, but I couldn't find anything on the internet.

[Henk]

Mark,

There is no VOC museum in Amsterdam. VOC collections are exhibited in several museums in the Netherlands. Among them the "Rijksmuseum" in Amsterdam or the "Amsterdams Historisch Museum".

I found this link: http://www.scheepvaartmuseum.nl/index.php?PageID=173

I searched for blades with VOC marks in a search engine for the maritiem museums, but I found only an inventory list that named an indonesian sword with VOC blade. Unfortunately no picture.

http://www.maritiemdigitaal.nl/search.aspx

Maybe someone with more patience can give it a try.....

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

....... I have not yet found at what point the VOC markings might have begun to appear on blades, but I would not expect them to appear as property type stamps until much later, and even then, not on the officers weapons.....

Hullo everybody,

Jim,

I think I have a photo of a VOC sword somewhere in my photo archives. It's from about 1675, marked with VOC, the year and the arms of Amsterdam.
I can't remember where I got the photos from. If there are no copyright issues, I'll look for them and post.

Best.

[Andrew]

I have no shame.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000140.html

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Andrew

I have no shame.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000140.html

It was inevitable ...

PS: Supreme kampilans rule! "Look out, Charlie!"

[Jim McDougall]

Auuugghhh!!! OK you guys.....all that therapy shot!!!! back to the nightmares .....shaver kool shaver kool shaver kool!!!!!

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo everybody,

Jim,

I think I have a photo of a VOC sword somewhere in my photo archives. It's from about 1675, marked with VOC, the year and the arms of Amsterdam.
I can't remember where I got the photos from. If there are no copyright issues, I'll look for them and post.

Best.

Hullo everybody,

I finally found the photos, but no source ref. I'll post anyway and ask for forgiveness in not getting permission first.

Best.

[M ELEY]

Hmmm... Well, now you have picqued my curiosity. I have an old shortsword/hanger, carved tropical wood hilt with a pattern exactly matching a museum Dutch smallsword of known VOC use (the museum sword is Singhalese-made with ivory hilt). Mine is of much more primative-styling, but I always suspected that mine was likewise made for the Dutch East India Company (my sword dates to around the Anglo-Dutch War of 1660-70 in Ceylon). I bring this up because the only marking I have on mine is a series of 4 dots/punches in a diamond pattern almost exactly as appears on your blade near the VOC marking. Could this be a forgotten/lost marking associated with the Company? Interesting...

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Mine is of much more primative-styling, but I always suspected that mine was likewise made for the Dutch East India Company (my sword dates to around the Anglo-Dutch War of 1660-70 in Ceylon). I bring this up because the only marking I have on mine is a series of 4 dots/punches in a diamond pattern almost exactly as appears on your blade near the VOC marking. Could this be a forgotten/lost marking associated with the Company? Interesting...

Just a thought could the VOC markings have been copied by local smiths, similar to the half moon marks or assad allah signature ?

[M ELEY]

You're got an excellent point there. Yes, that easily could have been the case. Still, this hanger isn't something that I would imagine the average Singhalese warrior in the 17th century would have wanted to carry. The hilt is in the Dutch taste, the grip in the form of the standing Singhalese lion, the protruding guard a crouching hunting dog, the quillons dragon heads and the blade of typical hanger fashion. These hilt patterns were indeed coming out of Ceylon at the time, but for the Dutch market (thus, the ivory smallsword with the exact same hilt pattern). I know the kastane has some of these specifics, but the blade on mine even has 3 fullers and the blade has been painted/stained with a brown primer, something very common for swords that went to sea. Likewise, hangers were very popular with sailors due to their short working-length.
The diamond pattern on the sword being discussed (and on mine) as mentioned in the past is found on some Dutch "dump" coins of the 18th century, BUT the same pattern is found on early (1st Century A.D.) Singhalese coins as well. Because it seems Shri Lanka and Dutch cultures have intermingled during the spice trade years much as the British/Indian and Spanish/Philippine cultures, I might never get an answer . Still, I'm not trying to take away attention from this piece to focus on mine, just thinking aloud. Wish someone could post a pic of a Dutch Dump with this marking on it, may shed some light on Dutch markings on swords...

[chevalier]

i have a link pertaining to this subject:



http://cgi.ebay.com/17th-Century-VOC...QQcmdZViewItem



its a "buy it now" item, VOC blade marked with the year 1619.


it looks alot like a piso podang to me............

[RhysMichael]

yep it is a piso podang not a tulwar

[RhysMichael]

I just looked at the link again and that is an active auction. I know you meant no infraction but so you know in the future active auction items cannot be discussed on the forums. I made the same mistake when I came here and someone had to tell me.

[Dajak]

Most off the VOC swords where gifts not for use off fighting but for status .

In that time soldiers had there own weapon not al the same .

Henk is right about this .

Ben