Does size matter? Question to jambiya lovers

Kubur · 18th June 2016, 12:27 PM

Hi

I have a question or maybe a comment to all jambiya lovers.
Most of the jambiya and khanjar are around 33cm long in their scabbards/sheath.
Expect the Meccan jambiya, some models are around 30-34cm, but most of them are between 25 to 28cm.
Like the one published by Stu - 26cm
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...meccan+jambiya
Some people said that they were made for children.
But i don't think this explanation well grounded, because it's a lot of jambiya and unless they had a lot of spoiled childs in Mecca I don't believe in this easy explanation.
One question for Stu about the belt of your previous jambiya, is it a man or child belt?
Second point I think Elggod mentioned that Lawrence asked for a small jambiya easy to wear.
So my question is simple: can we say that Meccan jambiya are normaly or can be smaller in size compared to their Yemeni counterparts???
Best,
Kubur

motan · 18th June 2016, 04:21 PM

Hello Kubur,
Unfortunately for those who like to discuss the functional aspects of weapons, most edged weapons are first and foremost ornaments, or man's jewels, like a gentleman's pocket watch. At least, that is my opinion. It is especially true for daggers, which are not very effective anyway. If you look at Omani, Yemeni or Hijazi daggers, you realize that fighting with them would be about as effective as hitting somebody with an oar.
Size does not matter because they were hardly ever used, if at all.
I have a small collection of daggers from the Levant (Al Sham) and about half of them have a grip which is too small for my hand (while having a perfectly usable blade). And I have avarage minus size hands. Some, which are definately no tourist items, are too small as a whole for any practical use.

kahnjar1 · 18th June 2016, 10:37 PM

Hi Kubur,
Re the belt. I do not have this piece any more but from memory the belt is "man size". BUT it must be remembered that the European man is generally of bigger size than the average Asian/Middle Eastern person, so lets say in the MODERN European form, it is either a small man or large child size

The other comment I would make is that the Yemeni made items are NOT Meccan, but are purely a copy of the form, so could really be any size the maker wishes to construct.
Stu

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 19th June 2016, 02:09 AM

Both the Yemeni Jambia and Omani Khanjar whilst fullfilling the Iconic position of Traditional Badge of Office as head of the family; are weapons. The point being that a massive blade with a reinforced spine, pointed, curved and sharp as a razor on both edges is a lethal weapon indeed. Such is the known lethality of this form that in Oman it is forbidden to draw it in an argument and very stiff penalties follow. It is a known lethal dagger.

Insofar as size it is not uncommon for sailors(Sur) to wear the smaller Khanjar simply for ease of use on board. Childrens daggers are much much smaller and not usually so ornate or expensive nor are they sharpened.

motan · 20th June 2016, 12:47 AM

Hello, I am a new member and do not wish to hurt anybody's feeling, but I still feel that my point is valid. I have no doubt that khanjars can be used as weapons in some circumstances and inflict damage. However, daggers are not very effective as weapons and are last resort weapon at best. Their only truely effective use is as an assasin's weapon against an unsespecting person because they are easily concealed and can be used for stabbing. Omani and Yemeni daggers do not qualify as stabbing weapons and are hard to conceal.
Anyway, daggers that are too small for comfortable use are a recurring phenomenon in many types of daggers that can not be explained away by them being made for children. To illustrate this point, I have made some pictures from my collection. I appologize for the quality and remind that I have an average minus size hand. The first one (Majdali type) can be said to be a tourist item because it is fairly recent, but the other two were made by villagers for use by local villagers and are therefore authentic ethnographic items (but not as nice or valuble as your khanjars). The logical conclusion is that functionality and use were not a primary concern for their makers.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st June 2016, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Hello, I am a new member and do not wish to hurt anybody's feeling, but I still feel that my point is valid. I have no doubt that khanjars can be used as weapons in some circumstances and inflict damage. However, daggers are not very effective as weapons and are last resort weapon at best. Their only truely effective use is as an assasin's weapon against an unsespecting person because they are easily concealed and can be used for stabbing. Omani and Yemeni daggers do not qualify as stabbing weapons and are hard to conceal.
Anyway, daggers that are too small for comfortable use are a recurring phenomenon in many types of daggers that can not be explained away by them being made for children. To illustrate this point, I have made some pictures from my collection. I appologize for the quality and remind that I have an average minus size hand. The first one (Majdali type) can be said to be a tourist item because it is fairly recent, but the other two were made by villagers for use by local villagers and are therefore authentic ethnographic items (but not as nice or valuble as your khanjars). The logical conclusion is that functionality and use were not a primary concern for their makers.

I wouldnt worry too much about hurting feelings here... It is in fact true that the Omani and Yemeni daggers are worn to be seen... identifying the wearer as the head of the family probably more so in the case of the Omani Khanjar but I can assure you of the lethality of these weapons and why the authorities get very annoyed if people pull a dagger in an argument.

It is a weapon of last resort... The opponent in the old days having to avoid abu futtilla, spear, sword, and finally the dagger... It is not a paddle or an oar... on the contrary the blade is extremely dangerous since it is so broad at the hilt and pointed, as well as curved, reinforced in the central spine, and razor sharp on both edges. please see The Omani Khanjar http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=Omani+Khanjar

motan · 21st June 2016, 01:52 PM

Thank you for your serious response. I agree with most of it, and I was a little provocative in my first message, just for sake of eliciting a response. It is just so obvious that not the actual use was the main consideration is the design of many weapons, and particularly in the design of daggers and clubs. If a dagger is small but can be held comfortably in the hand, it can be used effectively.
I also agree to the general order of use for fully-armed fighter: first a projectile weapon, sling, arrow, javelin or musket, then a speer, halberd or similar, then sword, club, axe and such and finally, the dagger. Using your dagger in a fighting means that you lost all other weapons and got too close.. Street fights are, of course, a whole different matter. If I ever had to use and edged weapon (I sincerely hope I never will), I would probably run for the kitchen and not to my collection..
And finally, to show that daggers can be used effectively, a story: In 1965, in a well documented case, the last Persian leopard in my country was killed by a bedouin herder with his shibriya. They surprised each other in a cave and after a fierce fight, where the bedouin lost three fingers, he managed to stab the leoperd in the neck and kill it.

estcrh · 21st June 2016, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

I have no doubt that khanjars can be used as weapons in some circumstances and inflict damage. However, daggers are not very effective as weapons and are last resort weapon at best. Their only truely effective use is as an assasin's weapon against an unsespecting person because they are easily concealed and can be used for stabbing.

Actually you are wrong here, daggers are very effect when used for the purpose they were created for, which is defending yourself against someone who has come very close to you. If you look at period illustrations and photos you well see that daggers of all kinds are promemently displayed, they are there as a visual warning, just showing that you were armed and able to defend yourself could advert an incident. When grappling with an opponent in a fight, having and using a dagger could have been the difference between life and death. In close quarters what else would you use?

Here is a jambiya that I have, 12 inch wootz blade with a large hilt, extremely sharp, this is a weapon and it was not meant to be hidden.

motan · 21st June 2016, 11:57 PM

Yes, SOME daggers can be very useful for defence, others much less so. Yours surely looks menancing (psychological effect is also very important).
However, I was once told by a close friend who was trained in one of the most renowned and respected commando units in the world that a knife or dagger are the worst choice for close-quarters fight. And as I said before, if, God forbid, I would ever have to use one, I would go for my kitchen drawer because and average chef knife can do better work than most daggers. No need for wootz or Walrus ivory.
I am not a violent person at all, but because I live outside the city, I keep a short, heavy stick behind the door just in case. I sawed it off a broken handle of a garden tool. Just a bit cheaper..and very effective
The whole point I wanted to make is that beauty, prestige and tradition are more important than fuction in daggers, and I don't have a problem with that..

estcrh · 22nd June 2016, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

I was once told by a close friend who was trained in one of the most renowned and respected commando units in the world that a knife or dagger are the worst choice for close-quarters fight.

So what would he do instead, bite them? We are not talking about modern times, we are talking about the times these weapons were made and would have been used. These were not "commandos", for the most part they had no special training, just everyday people trying to protect themselves.

Quote:

I would ever have to use one, I would go for my kitchen drawer because and average chef knife can do better work than most daggers.

And what evidence do you have that your kitchen knife would be a better choice than a dagger?

estcrh · 22nd June 2016, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Anyway, daggers that are too small for comfortable use are a recurring phenomenon in many types of daggers that can not be explained away by them being made for children. To illustrate this point, I have made some pictures from my collection.

Maybe you should have bought larger daggers.

motan · 22nd June 2016, 02:09 PM

This is getting too personal, so I am going to stop here. But before that, I want to repeat what I said before. Anything that is large enough, sharp enough, not too heavy etc will do. There is no need for sophistication, only for user skill. I also said that I would personally prefer a heavy stick, baseball bat etc to a dagger.
The reason I say this is not because I want to dowplay the value of beautiful daggers, but emphasize that reasons related to function is not productive way to explain the shape and size of daggers (see recent thread about fullers). They are like they are because their makers and owners liked them that way. After all, most of us, I think, are antique collectors and not would-be knights...

18th June 2016, 12:27 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Does size matter? Question to jambiya lovers Hi I have a question or maybe a comment to all jambiya lovers. Most of the jambiya and khanjar are around 33cm long in their scabbards/sheath. Expect the Meccan jambiya, some models are around 30-34cm, but most of them are between 25 to 28cm. Like the one published by Stu - 26cm http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...meccan+jambiya Some people said that they were made for children. But i don't think this explanation well grounded, because it's a lot of jambiya and unless they had a lot of spoiled childs in Mecca I don't believe in this easy explanation. One question for Stu about the belt of your previous jambiya, is it a man or child belt? Second point I think Elggod mentioned that Lawrence asked for a small jambiya easy to wear. So my question is simple: can we say that Meccan jambiya are normaly or can be smaller in size compared to their Yemeni counterparts??? Best, Kubur Attached Images

18th June 2016, 04:21 PM	#2
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Size does not matter - for daggers Hello Kubur, Unfortunately for those who like to discuss the functional aspects of weapons, most edged weapons are first and foremost ornaments, or man's jewels, like a gentleman's pocket watch. At least, that is my opinion. It is especially true for daggers, which are not very effective anyway. If you look at Omani, Yemeni or Hijazi daggers, you realize that fighting with them would be about as effective as hitting somebody with an oar. Size does not matter because they were hardly ever used, if at all. I have a small collection of daggers from the Levant (Al Sham) and about half of them have a grip which is too small for my hand (while having a perfectly usable blade). And I have avarage minus size hands. Some, which are definately no tourist items, are too small as a whole for any practical use.

20th June 2016, 12:47 AM	#5
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	To Ibrahim al Balooshi Hello, I am a new member and do not wish to hurt anybody's feeling, but I still feel that my point is valid. I have no doubt that khanjars can be used as weapons in some circumstances and inflict damage. However, daggers are not very effective as weapons and are last resort weapon at best. Their only truely effective use is as an assasin's weapon against an unsespecting person because they are easily concealed and can be used for stabbing. Omani and Yemeni daggers do not qualify as stabbing weapons and are hard to conceal. Anyway, daggers that are too small for comfortable use are a recurring phenomenon in many types of daggers that can not be explained away by them being made for children. To illustrate this point, I have made some pictures from my collection. I appologize for the quality and remind that I have an average minus size hand. The first one (Majdali type) can be said to be a tourist item because it is fairly recent, but the other two were made by villagers for use by local villagers and are therefore authentic ethnographic items (but not as nice or valuble as your khanjars). The logical conclusion is that functionality and use were not a primary concern for their makers. Attached Images

21st June 2016, 01:52 PM	#7
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	To Ibrahim ak Balooshi Thank you for your serious response. I agree with most of it, and I was a little provocative in my first message, just for sake of eliciting a response. It is just so obvious that not the actual use was the main consideration is the design of many weapons, and particularly in the design of daggers and clubs. If a dagger is small but can be held comfortably in the hand, it can be used effectively. I also agree to the general order of use for fully-armed fighter: first a projectile weapon, sling, arrow, javelin or musket, then a speer, halberd or similar, then sword, club, axe and such and finally, the dagger. Using your dagger in a fighting means that you lost all other weapons and got too close.. Street fights are, of course, a whole different matter. If I ever had to use and edged weapon (I sincerely hope I never will), I would probably run for the kitchen and not to my collection.. And finally, to show that daggers can be used effectively, a story: In 1965, in a well documented case, the last Persian leopard in my country was killed by a bedouin herder with his shibriya. They surprised each other in a cave and after a fierce fight, where the bedouin lost three fingers, he managed to stab the leoperd in the neck and kill it.

21st June 2016, 11:57 PM	#9
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	To Estcrh Yes, SOME daggers can be very useful for defence, others much less so. Yours surely looks menancing (psychological effect is also very important). However, I was once told by a close friend who was trained in one of the most renowned and respected commando units in the world that a knife or dagger are the worst choice for close-quarters fight. And as I said before, if, God forbid, I would ever have to use one, I would go for my kitchen drawer because and average chef knife can do better work than most daggers. No need for wootz or Walrus ivory. I am not a violent person at all, but because I live outside the city, I keep a short, heavy stick behind the door just in case. I sawed it off a broken handle of a garden tool. Just a bit cheaper..and very effective The whole point I wanted to make is that beauty, prestige and tradition are more important than fuction in daggers, and I don't have a problem with that..

18th June 2016, 10:37 PM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi Kubur, Re the belt. I do not have this piece any more but from memory the belt is "man size". BUT it must be remembered that the European man is generally of bigger size than the average Asian/Middle Eastern person, so lets say in the MODERN European form, it is either a small man or large child size The other comment I would make is that the Yemeni made items are NOT Meccan, but are purely a copy of the form, so could really be any size the maker wishes to construct. Stu

19th June 2016, 02:09 AM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Both the Yemeni Jambia and Omani Khanjar whilst fullfilling the Iconic position of Traditional Badge of Office as head of the family; are weapons. The point being that a massive blade with a reinforced spine, pointed, curved and sharp as a razor on both edges is a lethal weapon indeed. Such is the known lethality of this form that in Oman it is forbidden to draw it in an argument and very stiff penalties follow. It is a known lethal dagger. Insofar as size it is not uncommon for sailors(Sur) to wear the smaller Khanjar simply for ease of use on board. Childrens daggers are much much smaller and not usually so ornate or expensive nor are they sharpened.

22nd June 2016, 02:09 PM	#12
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	To Estcrh This is getting too personal, so I am going to stop here. But before that, I want to repeat what I said before. Anything that is large enough, sharp enough, not too heavy etc will do. There is no need for sophistication, only for user skill. I also said that I would personally prefer a heavy stick, baseball bat etc to a dagger. The reason I say this is not because I want to dowplay the value of beautiful daggers, but emphasize that reasons related to function is not productive way to explain the shape and size of daggers (see recent thread about fullers). They are like they are because their makers and owners liked them that way. After all, most of us, I think, are antique collectors and not would-be knights...