what is this?

HUSAR · 28th August 2008, 08:50 PM

hello i have been not on line for a while...
please see pictures below and maybe you have an idea what kind of object is this iron shaft, i will take some better pictures during weekend, this "mace" is around 40cm long,, heavy 1-2 kg octagonal, welded and brass inlaid in arabic ? sentences
thank you in advance for help....Husar

kronckew · 28th August 2008, 09:21 PM

bar mace? how long is it?

HUSAR · 28th August 2008, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

bar mace? how long is it?

about 40 cm, just have found out that one symbol is coptic cross and another trinity .... so origin seems to be from Egypt?

Dom · 29th August 2008, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HUSAR

so origin seems to be from Egypt?

negative, not from Egypt, I'm formal

under reserves,
may be to 've a look to or around Ethiopia

à +

Dom

Yannis · 29th August 2008, 08:45 AM

If it is fit enough to enter in a pistol barrel, it is a ramrod

kronckew · 29th August 2008, 10:08 AM

quite possible, is the swollen end dished? octagonal x-section is a bit unusual. looks like it'd be for a serious calibre.

ramrods were frequently separated from their weapons in the heat of battle. many a trooper has fired his ramrod down range in the heat of an encounter, which is very embarrassing when he has to explain what happened to it (presuming he survived).

one of my favourite episodes of 'Sharp' is when the evil french spy Duclos sends two french cavalrymen, sabres drawn, charging down on Sgt. Harper, telling them he can only have time to shoot one of them, the survivor would get a handsome reward, (muzzle loading rifles of the period took a bit more time reloading than a musket as well) anyhow harper shoots one, pours in some powder & priming, & shoots the ramrod into the 2nd ...

David · 29th August 2008, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HUSAR

about 40 cm, just have found out that one symbol is coptic cross and another trinity .... so origin seems to be from Egypt?

Interesting object. I am not yet convinced that is a coptic cross. The symbols seem to have magickal significance, but you pics don't really show them very well or the script which also appears on the shaft. Can you make clearer photos without all that glare?
I seriously doubt that this was intended as a ramrod. What are the dimensions? Is it solid steel/iron?

Mark · 29th August 2008, 03:56 PM

What does the other end look like? Any signs of wear on it? I would expect scrape marks if it were a ram rod, and perhaps dents or bends if it were a mace. Perhaps it is a baton (swagger stick)?

HUSAR · 29th August 2008, 06:10 PM

Dear all
this is pretty heavy more than 1kg is it solid iron, welded.
i will make some more pictures during weekend... there are markings which look like talismanic symbols all over "head" and arabic inscriptions on the shaft
best
Husar

kronckew · 29th August 2008, 06:49 PM

bit heavy for a ramrod then. possible truncheon/baton/cosh?

Atlantia · 30th August 2008, 04:15 PM

Hi Husar

Is this the one off ebay (UK) a few weeks ago?
If not then there was an identical one. Seller described it as indo-persian if memory serves, but I dont think it is.
There was recently a thread about chinese/asian stick maces. I feel that this might be in that category. I must admit I was tempted to bid on the one on ebay, I think its attractive whatever it is.

Regards
Gene

HUSAR · 15th September 2008, 07:28 PM

some more pictures maybe somebody can read those scripts?

Tim Simmons · 15th September 2008, 09:18 PM

Looks like a baton to me. Some high up chap. Could be a club but a little short? and rather fancy for an ordinary fighter? nice though

Dom · 15th September 2008, 11:24 PM

what ever it is that object, the last pics very clear show;
- arabic writing
- none arabic language
- either; Farsi or Pashto alphabet (د پښتو الفباء)

impossibility to have a Coptic origine as mentionned,
but for sure Indo-Iranian

à +

Dom

HUSAR · 18th September 2008, 08:25 AM

hi Dom!
thanks for the post, can you translate those scripts??? or symbols?
best
Husar

Dom · 18th September 2008, 05:00 PM

sorry, impossible to translate
capacities of my translator are "just" Arabic ... nobody 's perfect

but anyway, her ... She is perfect ... as principle

à +

Dom

rand · 24th September 2008, 01:04 AM

Booty from Adoni stored at Bikaner Armory had bar maces 64cm long with a very similar construction, pictured in "The Arts of the Muslim Knight" page 237.

rand

ward · 24th September 2008, 01:19 AM

Not in my copy French or English.

rand · 24th September 2008, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

Not in my copy French or English.

Thats interesting, just recieved a copy of "The Arts of the Muslim Knight", The Furusiyya Art Foundation Collection by Bashir Mohamed, is 416 pages, the second half of the book is mostly Mughal arms and on page 257, number 247 it shows hour iron maces that are similar except they have a slight curve near the head of the mace.

Was disappointed not to see more Mamluk arms shown in the book as that was the main theme for the exhibit and the collection has more examples.

This book was on special from Amazon... If you have the French version and its different let me know.

rand

ward · 24th September 2008, 04:20 AM

First time you wrote 237. These ones in the book have nothing in common with the one under discussion. Other than the fact their all head wrenches.

G. McCormack · 24th September 2008, 07:51 AM

I'm really fascinated by this object.

My guess is......magic wand.

Really. I'm thinking the four symbols are Christian, and are most similar to a triquetra, a vesica piscis or ichthus, a cross potent or coptic cross, and though more a stretch than the others, I'd blindly guess the square symbol on the head with the 4 sets of three lines may be a triparted cross, with each line inlaid representing one of the 12 tribes of Israel.
The script looks most similar to cursive hieratic or demotic. But the symbols are Christian.....so that means maybe this is an early Christian scepter for ritual purposes (magic wand) covered in ancient Christian symbols and even earlier potent spells in hieratic?

Any of that sorta make sense? or just sound crazy?

Also, any mention of magic wands in historical manuals says they are tapered, and about a cubit in length.

Lets hear someone figure out the full story!

28th August 2008, 08:50 PM	#1
HUSAR Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 80	what is this? hello i have been not on line for a while... please see pictures below and maybe you have an idea what kind of object is this iron shaft, i will take some better pictures during weekend, this "mace" is around 40cm long,, heavy 1-2 kg octagonal, welded and brass inlaid in arabic ? sentences thank you in advance for help....Husar Attached Images

15th September 2008, 07:28 PM	#12
HUSAR Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 80	more pictures some more pictures maybe somebody can read those scripts? Attached Images

24th September 2008, 01:04 AM	#17
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Bar Maces Booty from Adoni stored at Bikaner Armory had bar maces 64cm long with a very similar construction, pictured in "The Arts of the Muslim Knight" page 237. rand

28th August 2008, 09:21 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	bar mace? how long is it?

29th August 2008, 08:45 AM	#5
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	If it is fit enough to enter in a pistol barrel, it is a ramrod

29th August 2008, 10:08 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	quite possible, is the swollen end dished? octagonal x-section is a bit unusual. looks like it'd be for a serious calibre. ramrods were frequently separated from their weapons in the heat of battle. many a trooper has fired his ramrod down range in the heat of an encounter, which is very embarrassing when he has to explain what happened to it (presuming he survived). one of my favourite episodes of 'Sharp' is when the evil french spy Duclos sends two french cavalrymen, sabres drawn, charging down on Sgt. Harper, telling them he can only have time to shoot one of them, the survivor would get a handsome reward, (muzzle loading rifles of the period took a bit more time reloading than a musket as well) anyhow harper shoots one, pours in some powder & priming, & shoots the ramrod into the 2nd ...

29th August 2008, 03:56 PM	#8
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	What does the other end look like? Any signs of wear on it? I would expect scrape marks if it were a ram rod, and perhaps dents or bends if it were a mace. Perhaps it is a baton (swagger stick)?

29th August 2008, 06:10 PM	#9
HUSAR Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 80	Dear all this is pretty heavy more than 1kg is it solid iron, welded. i will make some more pictures during weekend... there are markings which look like talismanic symbols all over "head" and arabic inscriptions on the shaft best Husar

29th August 2008, 06:49 PM	#10
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	bit heavy for a ramrod then. possible truncheon/baton/cosh?

30th August 2008, 04:15 PM	#11
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Husar Is this the one off ebay (UK) a few weeks ago? If not then there was an identical one. Seller described it as indo-persian if memory serves, but I dont think it is. There was recently a thread about chinese/asian stick maces. I feel that this might be in that category. I must admit I was tempted to bid on the one on ebay, I think its attractive whatever it is. Regards Gene

15th September 2008, 09:18 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Looks like a baton to me. Some high up chap. Could be a club but a little short? and rather fancy for an ordinary fighter? nice though

15th September 2008, 11:24 PM	#14
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	what ever it is that object, the last pics very clear show; - arabic writing - none arabic language - either; Farsi or Pashto alphabet (د پښتو الفباء) impossibility to have a Coptic origine as mentionned, but for sure Indo-Iranian à + Dom

18th September 2008, 08:25 AM	#15
HUSAR Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 80	hi Dom! thanks for the post, can you translate those scripts??? or symbols? best Husar

18th September 2008, 05:00 PM	#16
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	sorry, impossible to translate capacities of my translator are "just" Arabic ... nobody 's perfect but anyway, her ... She is perfect ... as principle à + Dom

24th September 2008, 01:19 AM	#18
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Not in my copy French or English.

24th September 2008, 04:20 AM	#20
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	First time you wrote 237. These ones in the book have nothing in common with the one under discussion. Other than the fact their all head wrenches.

24th September 2008, 07:51 AM	#21
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	I'm really fascinated by this object. My guess is......magic wand. Really. I'm thinking the four symbols are Christian, and are most similar to a triquetra, a vesica piscis or ichthus, a cross potent or coptic cross, and though more a stretch than the others, I'd blindly guess the square symbol on the head with the 4 sets of three lines may be a triparted cross, with each line inlaid representing one of the 12 tribes of Israel. The script looks most similar to cursive hieratic or demotic. But the symbols are Christian.....so that means maybe this is an early Christian scepter for ritual purposes (magic wand) covered in ancient Christian symbols and even earlier potent spells in hieratic? Any of that sorta make sense? or just sound crazy? Also, any mention of magic wands in historical manuals says they are tapered, and about a cubit in length. Lets hear someone figure out the full story!