For comment #2

[A. G. Maisey]

Looks like the Sunhat wrongko

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24790

has run its course, so here is another keris for comment.

[David]

So what can you tell us about this particular form of wrongko Alan. I am presuming it is Cirebon. What era does this form originate from and did it serve a particular purpose (it seems more formal than everyday to me)?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

I am presuming it is Cirebon.

Hello David,

I would place it a little bit more to the East, Tegal. Handle and wrongko are typical.

Regards,
Detlef

PS: nice fitting sarung!

[David]

Thanks Detlef. Tegal and Cirebon are often a bit of a confusion for me as they seem to share some similar dress styles.

[A. G. Maisey]

Area of origin is Tegal.

I do not know the name applied to this wrongko by the people who used to wear this style, in Solo I have heard a number of people refer to it as "Teratai", "teratai" means "lotus/water lily", it is Malay/BI, rather than Basa Jawa, so "teratai" is likely to be a dealers' name or collectors' name rather than the name used by the people who made it or wore it --- something like our previous "caping/capil".

The hilt is a stylised Ganesha.

Tegal is located in North West Jawa Tengah, near Pekalongan.

[Jean]

Among European collectors this style of wrongko is said to have "hanging ears" on the sides.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, well I guess it has got hanging ears, so there's another option for a collector's name:- "wrongko kuping gantung".

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yeah, well I guess it has got hanging ears, so there's another option for a collector's name:- "wrongko kuping gantung".

I am still curious, however, if you know if such a wrongko would have been suitable for formal dress or was is more for every day wear?

[Sajen]

Hello Alan,

Kuping gantung is a nice name for this wrongko style!

David,

I only can guess but the few I've handled have looked as they have been for every day wear.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, I've never been to Tegal and I do not know anybody who is keris literate who comes from there, so I am not able to provide a valid opinion. However, based upon the fact that the style of this wrongko is low and rather durable, I would guess that it is the Tegal equivalent of a gayaman.

Detlef --- remember where you heard it first when somebody tries to sell you one.

[Green]

It's interesting to note that Mr Maisey is very reluctant to show the blade. I wonder why that is? would love to hear an honest explanation.

I'm from a keris culture in the state of Kelantan Malaysia. Admittedly I'm a relative novice in kerisology but in my area, there is only one major reason why people sometimes don't want to show their keris blades... it's is primarily because they feel rather reluctant because they fear people will not think their blade is of good enough quality. And keris people are very very sensitive to criticism of their keris, esp heirloom keris. Much like it is not good form to criticize the look of someone's babies.

But I don't feel Mr Maisey's reason is related to the quality of blades as we all know he is very very experienced and a recognized expert in keris, particularly Javanese kerises. So, pardon my rather basic question but would be happy to understand the reasons why. (I am not at all familiar with Indonesian keris culture so I may have missed something about 'showing the blades' )

[David]

Originally Posted by Green

It's interesting to note that Mr Maisey is very reluctant to show the blade. I wonder why that is? would love to hear an honest explanation.

I'm from a keris culture in the state of Kelantan Malaysia. Admittedly I'm a relative novice in kerisology but in my area, there is only one major reason why people sometimes don't want to show their keris blades... it's is primarily because they feel rather reluctant because they fear people will not think their blade is of good enough quality. And keris people are very very sensitive to criticism of their keris, esp heirloom keris. Much like it is not good form to criticize the look of someone's babies.

But I don't feel Mr Maisey's reason is related to the quality of blades as we all know he is very very experienced and a recognized expert in keris, particularly Javanese kerises. So, pardon my rather basic question but would be happy to understand the reasons why. (I am not at all familiar with Indonesian keris culture so I may have missed something about 'showing the blades' )

Well, i am not going to answer for Alan here as he no doubt has his own take on this and will probably come along and express that sometime soon. I can speak from my own viewpoint however.
Since you speak of being from "a keris culture" you are apparently aware that there are indeed many. The understanding of keris is not a homogenous thing that everyone agrees upon. You are part of a Malaysian keris culture while Alan relates to a Javanese one. There are bound to be differences in approaches, believes and even basic concepts. As i stated in Alan's other recent thread, i used to be more strict about showing blades just as he is, but of late have felt the need to post some images to public pages just to feed my thirst for knowledge about what it is that i actually have in my collection. After all, i'm not getting any younger. Still, there are many blades in my collection that i will never show publicly. Interestingly enough, often these are keris that may not be the most beautiful or skillful blades, but it is not because i fear criticism of their execution that i choose not to show them. These are mostly more talismanic blades and/or ones that i have formed a more personal connection to. The keris is, after all, a very personal weapon. At least that is what it used to be. These days, if online keris forums are anything to go by, they seem more a commodity to be flaunted in public. Many people seem to post keris in these venues simply as a show & tell exercise in a constant game of one-upmanship. I believe that when you get down to the original intent and purpose of such an iconic artifact that this can be seen by some people within certain keris cultures as somewhat offensive. For some i believe it is sort of like showing nude pictures of your wife. While i don't always completely agree from a collector's point of view i can certainly understand that from someone who is deeply engaged in the culture itself. And frankly, whenever i do decide to show one of my keris blades for whatever reason it is always well considered first and somewhat regretted afterwards.
But unnlike many Indonesian collectors i do not have the good fortune to have a local keris club nearby where i can attend regular meetings and sit around with friends who share my enthusiasm for keris and discuss the finer points of our blades face-to-face. So if i do have questions about origin, age or particulars of form i really have no choice but to post a blade on a public forum for discussion if i hope to find new information about a blade in my collection. In doing so, however, i open up that viewing to countless people on the internet that i have no real connection with. And so i can google keris and find that people i have never even had any contact with are now showing one of my dearest "family" members on their Pinterest page. So that is a dilemma for me. If i want to know more about a particular blade i need to post it where it can be discussed, but once i do the images of that blade are now in the public domain, forever out of my control. Some believe that this may well weaken any personal connection one has with that keris. In forms of Western Magick for instance, one keeps the work one does to themselves. There is an old axiom: To know, to will, to dare, to keep silent. Not showing a keris blade is sort of like the "to keep silent" part. Not showing people the "magick". If one believes one's keris holds power, flaunting that blade in public likely weaken that power and one's connection to it.
I think that you are indeed on track on why some in your own circles are hesitant to show their blades. Often people don't want to hear that the keris they are really excited about, that the dealer told them was an old Mojo pusaka or a high court piece, is really a recently made Madura blade. Or even if the blade is exactly what they think it is, some my still criticize the execution. Personally i could care less. I acquire keris that call to me regardless of their execution. Collecting keris is not a beauty contest for me and some of the more reserved blades in my collection have over the years turned out to be some of my favorites. But if one does choose to place a keris blade on a public forum they should be prepared to accept some feedback, otherwise why place it there to begin with? If the blade is so personal to you that criticism of that blade is seen as criticism of yourself then i would suggest that it would probably be best not to show such a blade in public in the first place.

[Jean]

Hello Nik,
As explained by Alan, you and I are not part of the Javanese culture so we are free to show any blade we wish without restriction. I attach the full pics of two Tegal krisses, one with a straight blade and the other with a luk blade. Contrary to Alan's blade the gonjos are not wavy.
Regards

[Green]

Excellent and very reasonable comment/explanation David!
But here's the thing. for me, I am forever grateful to those that show their blades, especially from serious and well respected collectors! because this is the only way I can learn. I personally have almost never comment on the 'quality' of a blade - any blade- primarily because I don't know enough and also as a mark of respect but sometimes do ask some points that I want to understand more regarding a particular blade.

but regarding the 'culture' of Indonesians NOT to show their blades for some mystical reasons , I guess this is not strictly correct, because for the last several years I've visited quite a few keris exhibitions in Indonesia, in places where keris culture is very deep, such as in Medan, Sumatera, Bone Sulawesi, Various places in Bali, Solo, Jogjakarta , Nganjuk and Jakarta.

Virtually all of the keris in the 'pameran' (exhibition) are old and I guess some are pusakas (Unless the exhibition is specifically for kemardikan keris)

[David]

Originally Posted by Green

Excellent and very reasonable comment/explanation David!
But here's the thing. for me, I am forever grateful to those that show their blades, especially from serious and well respected collectors! because this is the only way I can learn. I personally have almost never comment on the 'quality' of a blade - any blade- primarily because I don't know enough and also as a mark of respect but sometimes do ask some points that I want to understand more regarding a particular blade.

Well, i feel exactly the same way. I am always grateful to those who choose to show their blades in these public forums because i do not have the opportunity to see good keris otherwise.

Originally Posted by Green

but regarding the 'culture' of Indonesians NOT to show their blades for some mystical reasons , I guess this is not strictly correct, because for the last several years I've visited quite a few keris exhibitions in Indonesia, in places where keris culture is very deep, such as in Medan, Sumatera, Bone Sulawesi, Various places in Bali, Solo, Jogjakarta , Nganjuk and Jakarta.

Virtually all of the keris in the 'pameran' (exhibition) are old and I guess some are pusakas (Unless the exhibition is specifically for kemardikan keris)

Well Nik, i think we also have to consider what was and what is. Certainly a lot has changed in the keris world, not only over the centuries, but especially in the last almost 50 years since the beginning of the keris "resurgence". Many things are new in todays keris cultures that not too many years ago would never be considered. And so we have many new names for dhapurs and pamors and new ideas for what is proper and what may not be. I believe that there is, no doubt, a lot of young blood in the keris circles in Jawa that choose to take a different perspective of things than their forerunners. But there is also a more traditional and conservative base of keris aficionados that are more likely to follow the older ways. As is always the way with any living culture, things change, for better and for worse.

[Marcokeris]

Another sarong like the others ( not mine .... a mine Javanese friend has this keris)

[A. G. Maisey]

Nik, over the time I have been a contributor to this Forum I have made it clear that I will not show a blade of a keris, or other item of tosan aji that I regard as a part of my personal collection. I could probably write a 5000 word essay on why I feel that it is improper to display one's personal possessions, and I could give reasons based in my own Australian/Irish culture, reasons based in Chinese culture, with which I have a strong connection, and reasons based in Javanese culture.

But I'm not going to write that essay. David has covered some of my rationale in his post # 12; in this thread, post 14,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24790

Jean raised a similar matter, and I responded in this way:-

Jean, any keris that a person regards as his keris should only be shown to another person subject to certain restrictions. These restrictions very definitely apply to me, but to you and other collectors who are outside the culture of the keris the restrictions do not apply. When I was accepted for training by Empu Suparman I lost a lot of the freedoms that I might otherwise have had. I have certain commitments to fulfil, certain obligations and a very strict code of ethics. These things do not apply to you.

Reduced to bare minimums, this is probably the most accurate answer I can give. I could give a multitude of examples to re-enforce that answer, but when it gets right down to the bone, that is the reason.

Now, as for the keris culture of the present day, as it is practiced in a multitude of places. I am most definitely not a part of that culture, and I will never be.

As for images viewed on a computer screen being a good way to learn about keris, I'm sorry, but although it may be possible to gain some extremely superficial knowledge that relates only to form, it is simply not possible in my opinion to learn much that is worthwhile about the Keris from an image on a computer screen --- and even less, as is increasingly the case, from an image on a hand phone (mobile, cell, or whatever else one may call these inventions of Satan).

But I guess, in the final analysis it all comes down to one simple thing:- if one needs to ask a question like this, one will never understand the answer.

[Green]

Alan;

Many thanks for your honest answer and I respect your conviction.

As an aside, although I totally agree with you about one not being able to fully grasp the subtleties of a keris blade from pictures, no matter how high the resolution is unless one can hold it in one's own hand, unfortunately in my case most of my buying is based on pictures from trusted sellers and collectors - a large part of which come from western collections. I consider this as my very modest effort to bring back home those that have travelled far outside their original culture. And if I may add, many of which are in a very sorry state where the blades have been 'abused' by over zealous cleaning into shiny silvery surface, which is definitely not the right way to treat them . but we've gone over this- my pet beef- before.

[A. G. Maisey]

The buying thing can be a problem Nik, and I probably understand this as well as, or maybe better than, most, because I sell from pictures, even though I almost never buy from pics. I do not buy from pics because I do not need to, I sell from pics because other people do need them to buy from.

But buying a keris from a picture is very, very different to understanding that keris, and in my opinion, the understanding can never come from a picture, no matter how good that image may be.

Incorrect attempts at cleaning and restoration can be regrettable, but so can failure to give sympathetic care to a keris, or anything else for that matter. A long time back I bought a box of keris, about 20 or 30 of them, mostly Bugis style, that looked as if they had spent the previous 100 years in the bottom of a Dutch dyke*. But they all restored well.

*I am writing Standard English.

[Green]

Alan;

LOL..you do have a fine sense of humor... that * helps.

But would love to see those box of bugis if you still keep them... as i collect bugis...both malaysian/patani bugis, and bugis bugis...

[A. G. Maisey]

NiK, that box of Bugis was bought in about 1980, they were restored and sold long ago. They were all complete, but nothing of any quality amongst them.