"The sword of the Prophet"

ariel · 24th February 2006, 05:11 AM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
A lot of money for a Wilkinson's fantasy sword!
Most interesting, despite all the fuss about "extensive research", this is as far from a genuine early Arabian sword as it can get.
The handle is very " Moresque" , ie early 2nd milennium North African/Andalusian variety.

Alan62 · 24th February 2006, 05:33 AM

I have a kinjal with some script on it,I posted a picture of the script on a translator forum and this is what the translation said(according to the translator)

"The sentence says: "la fata ella Ali (the first line), la sayf ella dhol-feqar".
Its mean is: "No boy except 'Ali', no sword except 'dhol-feqar'".
If you want explanation of it, here it is:

'Ali' is the name of 'Al-Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (Karraml-lahu wajhahw)'.
He is the cousin of the Prophet Muhammad (3alayhis-sallam).

'dhol-feqar' is the name of Imam Ali's sword.

This sentence is said by Shi'a Muslims. "

I thought it was interesting (funny thing I just found out about an hour ago after months of searching)

Here is the Kinjal with the script

ham · 24th February 2006, 06:50 AM

I think a little context is called for here:

The nearest English sense for the Arabic is

There is no hero like 'Ali
and no sword like Dhul-Faqar

'Ali was a near relative of the Prophet by both blood and marriage.
He was chosen 4th Caliph, or successor to the Prophet, as ruler of Muslims.
But the reason this passage appears so often on Islamic weapons is that 'Ali was known as the greatest Muslim warrior. He is revered for his strength and honor by all Muslims, and the saying is certainly not limited to Shi'a followers alone.
The matter of the cloven tip of this most famous sword, given by the Prophet to 'Ali, has been discussed ad infinitum on this forum over the years. What may not have been addressed however, is the meaning of its name, Dhul Faqar. This has nothing to do with the tip of the blade, rather it means Posessor of Spines. Given the form of most early Arab blades (visible at Topkapi and elsewhere,) this name appears to refer to the central fullering and/or raised ribs visible on many of them.

Sincerely,

Ham

Alan62 · 24th February 2006, 02:51 PM

Thanks for clearing that up ham,

Ariel I agree with you it seems like a lot of money for a "fantasy" sword,
I wonder if other fantasy sword that are limited editions go for that much?

I like my old beat up Kindjal better

Pusaka · 24th February 2006, 09:25 PM

I remember seeing a ancient painting of the sword and it was shown as a curved blade with the snake tong point (forked)

Dom · 25th February 2006, 12:18 AM

In Topkapi Palace, I saw a sample for that type of sword,
in Tunis souk also, it was a copy, funny
here joined, a scan from my bibliotheque source;
- Les Armes Orientales (Easten Weapons) by Iaroslav Lebedynsky
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=8831&stc=1

translation of French text:
Zulficar (dhoû-l-faqâr) ottaman
of XVIII century with flamed
blades. Zulficar is a blade parallels
scimitar evoking the legendary sabre of Ali.
The use of such weapons to the combat is doubtful;
some could be used as religious or military emblems.

à +

Dom

Aqtai · 25th February 2006, 12:41 AM

That sword looks like a rather crude straight "dhul-feqqar" style blade with a 15th century Andalucian hilt attached to it.

Dom · 6th March 2006, 02:13 PM

in preparation of our next trip, some months in Syria, I found in a book concerning that country the following illustration dated 18th century
it's exactly the sword of our chat purpose
translation of the French text (by a Frenchie

) ;
The Christians of Syria are above all the Arabs: they preserve the
culture and the modes of representation, including in the religious
iconography. Illuminated (?) (Enluminée) page of the Gospel of Luc, XVIIIe S., Museum of Damas

tuancd · 7th March 2006, 01:23 AM

Just a slight correction of the translation. In order to make it clearer.

The Christians of Syria are above all Arabs: ... and not "The Christians of Syria are above all the Arabs:"

That makes a difference (another frenchie

)

Dom · 7th March 2006, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuancd

Just a slight correction of the translation. In order to make it clearer.
The Christians of Syria are above all Arabs: ... and not "The Christians of Syria are above all the Arabs:"
That makes a difference (another frenchie

)

I apologize for that major mistake, I'm realy shame, I haven't excuse, deeply sorry if I offend somebody
and, I'm not a Christian, I'm a Muslim

that prove that it wasn't a provocation from my side, just a stupidity to have used an automatic translator
Merci cher Compatriote d'avoir corrigé cette imbécilité

PUFF · 7th March 2006, 04:10 AM

According to the Quran, human illustration is prohibited. The picture above might came from less conservative muslim community. And the sword drawing might be only artist 's concept, IMHO

Zan · 7th March 2006, 04:24 AM

Hi Puff,

The pictures comes from the New Testament of the Bible, and not the Guran, so it makes sense. It is Arab, not Muslim.

Zan (still another Frenchie!, but from Québec)

M.carter · 7th March 2006, 12:02 PM

I find it very strange that the pictures come from a bible. You can see that whoever drew the pictures, wrote in the border around them some texts from the Hadith of the prophet muhammad. Which is totally contradicting. Why would a muslim arab have his picture drawn in a bible, with islamic texts around??

Intersting to note is the halo around the mans head, which implies late abbasid period (according to "The court of the Caliphs"- Hugh Kennedy). During the late abbasid period, artists seem to have found halo's in christian drawings (usually only around the heads of saints) impressive, and they drew halo's around everyone!

Im quite reluctant to believe that this page came from a bible, as the texts in the border are typical shiite texts(writtern in farsi script), and the fair Persian face on the character, and decoration all seem to point to Persia.

If I were an arab, I would find the french text below the drawing extremely offensive.

ariel · 7th March 2006, 12:29 PM

Oh, No-o-o-o-o!
Please, not on this Forum!!!!!
Can we just talk about sharp and pointy things?

Andrew · 7th March 2006, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Oh, No-o-o-o-o!
Please, not on this Forum!!!!!
Can we just talk about sharp and pointy things?

Indeed.

Mark, I hope no one would be offended by a text some 300 years old. After all, it wasn't posted for us to discuss the religious and cultural prejudices of the author, rather the interesting sword held by the subject.

If any one is offended by this text, please feel free to lodge a complaint with the decendents of the author, as no one here is endorsing the comments.

Let's please focus on the sword.

M.carter · 7th March 2006, 02:35 PM

Sorry

Didnt mean to stir things up. No, im not offended (why would I anyway??).

Sorry if I caused some unrest in my previous post. I just wanted to comment on the manuscript.

B.I · 7th March 2006, 05:15 PM

back to the original sword, it may be wise not to dismiss these swords so quickly. obviously this one is of no consequence, but again its always good to have a clear mind, for a very good reason.
i know of a number of incredible finds. unfortunately i have yet to be part of one so i am the storyteller, and not the boastful owner

not so many years ago in one of the largest auction houses (how vague is that?) a sword appeared that looked along the lines of ariels andalusian piece (attached). it had the typical hispanic hilt and a full matching scabbard. the blade was wide and straight and the sword was altogether quite gawdy. the hilt and scabbard was covered in large turquoises and other stones, set into bone and it was bloody ugly. it was catalogued as a 19thC theatrical sword but a well known arms specialist (again, vague). to all intent and purpose, it looked exactly as it was described. more costume jewellery than weapon and so it was pretty much overlooked. the blade was quite nicely decorated so it fetched more than a meaningless sword, but much less than a sword of merit.
well, the blade was actually almost identical to the attached sword in the topkapi and is completely original! the goldword is as fine, the blade shape the same (with multiple fullers), it isnt quite as thoroughly decorated but the islamic script and st. irene mark are present. i have no idea how this sword came to be dressed in this manner, nor how anyone could have overlooked it once the blade was seen. all i can say was that the fittings were so incredibly ugly that no one of knowledge must have unsheathed the sword to see its true beauty.
i think this is one of the greatest of finds, and i cannot begin to explain the importance of the blade. as far as i know, it is the only other one outside the topkapi and its crazy to think it entered the salerooms without being noticed. it is in a private collection that i know, and will be published at some point this year.
just goes to show it pays to look twice.
the hilt and scabbard have been removed of course, and will no doubt find a trade kaskara blade and re-enter the salerooms once more as a 19thC theatrical sword.

Andrew · 7th March 2006, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.carter

Sorry

Didnt mean to stir things up. No, im not offended (why would I anyway??).

Sorry if I caused some unrest in my previous post. I just wanted to comment on the manuscript.

No worries, Mark.

24th February 2006, 05:11 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	"The sword of the Prophet" http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 A lot of money for a Wilkinson's fantasy sword! Most interesting, despite all the fuss about "extensive research", this is as far from a genuine early Arabian sword as it can get. The handle is very " Moresque" , ie early 2nd milennium North African/Andalusian variety.

24th February 2006, 06:50 AM	#3
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	786 I think a little context is called for here: The nearest English sense for the Arabic is There is no hero like 'Ali and no sword like Dhul-Faqar 'Ali was a near relative of the Prophet by both blood and marriage. He was chosen 4th Caliph, or successor to the Prophet, as ruler of Muslims. But the reason this passage appears so often on Islamic weapons is that 'Ali was known as the greatest Muslim warrior. He is revered for his strength and honor by all Muslims, and the saying is certainly not limited to Shi'a followers alone. The matter of the cloven tip of this most famous sword, given by the Prophet to 'Ali, has been discussed ad infinitum on this forum over the years. What may not have been addressed however, is the meaning of its name, Dhul Faqar. This has nothing to do with the tip of the blade, rather it means Posessor of Spines. Given the form of most early Arab blades (visible at Topkapi and elsewhere,) this name appears to refer to the central fullering and/or raised ribs visible on many of them. Sincerely, Ham

25th February 2006, 12:18 AM	#6
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	In Topkapi Palace, I saw a sample for that type of sword, in Tunis souk also, it was a copy, funny here joined, a scan from my bibliotheque source; - Les Armes Orientales (Easten Weapons) by Iaroslav Lebedynsky http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=8831&stc=1 translation of French text: Zulficar (dhoû-l-faqâr) ottaman of XVIII century with flamed blades. Zulficar is a blade parallels scimitar evoking the legendary sabre of Ali. The use of such weapons to the combat is doubtful; some could be used as religious or military emblems. à + Dom Attached Images

6th March 2006, 02:13 PM	#8
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	in preparation of our next trip, some months in Syria, I found in a book concerning that country the following illustration dated 18th century it's exactly the sword of our chat purpose translation of the French text (by a Frenchie ) ; The Christians of Syria are above all the Arabs: they preserve the culture and the modes of representation, including in the religious iconography. Illuminated (?) (Enluminée) page of the Gospel of Luc, XVIIIe S., Museum of Damas Attached Images

7th March 2006, 05:15 PM	#17
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	one of the greatest finds back to the original sword, it may be wise not to dismiss these swords so quickly. obviously this one is of no consequence, but again its always good to have a clear mind, for a very good reason. i know of a number of incredible finds. unfortunately i have yet to be part of one so i am the storyteller, and not the boastful owner not so many years ago in one of the largest auction houses (how vague is that?) a sword appeared that looked along the lines of ariels andalusian piece (attached). it had the typical hispanic hilt and a full matching scabbard. the blade was wide and straight and the sword was altogether quite gawdy. the hilt and scabbard was covered in large turquoises and other stones, set into bone and it was bloody ugly. it was catalogued as a 19thC theatrical sword but a well known arms specialist (again, vague). to all intent and purpose, it looked exactly as it was described. more costume jewellery than weapon and so it was pretty much overlooked. the blade was quite nicely decorated so it fetched more than a meaningless sword, but much less than a sword of merit. well, the blade was actually almost identical to the attached sword in the topkapi and is completely original! the goldword is as fine, the blade shape the same (with multiple fullers), it isnt quite as thoroughly decorated but the islamic script and st. irene mark are present. i have no idea how this sword came to be dressed in this manner, nor how anyone could have overlooked it once the blade was seen. all i can say was that the fittings were so incredibly ugly that no one of knowledge must have unsheathed the sword to see its true beauty. i think this is one of the greatest of finds, and i cannot begin to explain the importance of the blade. as far as i know, it is the only other one outside the topkapi and its crazy to think it entered the salerooms without being noticed. it is in a private collection that i know, and will be published at some point this year. just goes to show it pays to look twice. the hilt and scabbard have been removed of course, and will no doubt find a trade kaskara blade and re-enter the salerooms once more as a 19thC theatrical sword. Attached Images

24th February 2006, 05:33 AM	#2
Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 164	I have a kinjal with some script on it,I posted a picture of the script on a translator forum and this is what the translation said(according to the translator) "The sentence says: "la fata ella Ali (the first line), la sayf ella dhol-feqar". Its mean is: "No boy except 'Ali', no sword except 'dhol-feqar'". If you want explanation of it, here it is: 'Ali' is the name of 'Al-Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (Karraml-lahu wajhahw)'. He is the cousin of the Prophet Muhammad (3alayhis-sallam). 'dhol-feqar' is the name of Imam Ali's sword. This sentence is said by Shi'a Muslims. " I thought it was interesting (funny thing I just found out about an hour ago after months of searching) Here is the Kinjal with the script

24th February 2006, 02:51 PM	#4
Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 164	Thanks for clearing that up ham, Ariel I agree with you it seems like a lot of money for a "fantasy" sword, I wonder if other fantasy sword that are limited editions go for that much? I like my old beat up Kindjal better

24th February 2006, 09:25 PM	#5
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I remember seeing a ancient painting of the sword and it was shown as a curved blade with the snake tong point (forked)

25th February 2006, 12:41 AM	#7
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	That sword looks like a rather crude straight "dhul-feqqar" style blade with a 15th century Andalucian hilt attached to it.

7th March 2006, 01:23 AM	#9
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	Just a slight correction of the translation. In order to make it clearer. The Christians of Syria are above all Arabs: ... and not "The Christians of Syria are above all the Arabs:" That makes a difference (another frenchie )

7th March 2006, 04:10 AM	#11
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	According to the Quran, human illustration is prohibited. The picture above might came from less conservative muslim community. And the sword drawing might be only artist 's concept, IMHO

7th March 2006, 04:24 AM	#12
Zan Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Montréal, Province of Québec, Canada Posts: 46	Hi Puff, The pictures comes from the New Testament of the Bible, and not the Guran, so it makes sense. It is Arab, not Muslim. Zan (still another Frenchie!, but from Québec)

7th March 2006, 12:02 PM	#13
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	I find it very strange that the pictures come from a bible. You can see that whoever drew the pictures, wrote in the border around them some texts from the Hadith of the prophet muhammad. Which is totally contradicting. Why would a muslim arab have his picture drawn in a bible, with islamic texts around?? Intersting to note is the halo around the mans head, which implies late abbasid period (according to "The court of the Caliphs"- Hugh Kennedy). During the late abbasid period, artists seem to have found halo's in christian drawings (usually only around the heads of saints) impressive, and they drew halo's around everyone! Im quite reluctant to believe that this page came from a bible, as the texts in the border are typical shiite texts(writtern in farsi script), and the fair Persian face on the character, and decoration all seem to point to Persia. If I were an arab, I would find the french text below the drawing extremely offensive.

7th March 2006, 12:29 PM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Oh, No-o-o-o-o! Please, not on this Forum!!!!! Can we just talk about sharp and pointy things?

7th March 2006, 02:35 PM	#16
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Sorry Didnt mean to stir things up. No, im not offended (why would I anyway??). Sorry if I caused some unrest in my previous post. I just wanted to comment on the manuscript.