Omani barrel.

[Pukka Bundook]

Thanks to Stu here on the Forum, I can say the barrel in this thread is Omani, and have a few questions about it;

1, I have seen barrels very similar to this, and in All cases the metal (gold?) in the cartouches has been removed.
This I can understand, as gold is valuable, but why in All cases?
These cartouches are all the same shape on the barrels I have seen, So!...
Were these cartouches stamped with a stamp of ownership?
Or, the maker's stamp?
I can see how if an owner sold off some arms/barrels, he may wish his stamp to be removed.

Any thoughts Gentlemen?

Also;
I gather such barrels were made over a long period.
Can anyone give in this case an idea of age?

And;
I have seen a few of these barrels stocked up.
The barrels appear high quality, yet the rest of the gun usually appears very rudimentary. Is there an explanation for this?

Thank you for your time,
Richard.
Edited to say I am having troublke attaching relevant photos of the cartouches in the barrel. will attach them ASAP.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It is interesting ....The guns of Oman were seldom if ever made there... The majority appear to be imported and many were Persian made. The signatures on yours seem to be of Persian artesans . See also http://www.klm-mra.be/icomam/downloads/issue07.pdf and note that they consider a lot of the barrels to be European, perhaps German.

I seldom see gold on the barrels although silver appears often... See also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=Omani+Guns

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

The other thing about Omani barrels, is that they are all of the same intricate design, and not just a plain tube with minimal decoration as seen on most other "ethnic" long guns.
Ibrahiim has posted pics in the past of many barrels which he has, and these are all of the same design as those featured here.
As Richard observes, why mount a beautiful barrel on a relatively plain stock?
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

The other thing about Omani barrels, is that they are all of the same intricate design, and not just a plain tube with minimal decoration as seen on most other "ethnic" long guns.
Ibrahiim has posted pics in the past of many barrels which he has, and these are all of the same design as those featured here.
As Richard observes, why mount a beautiful barrel on a relatively plain stock?
Stu

Salaams kahnjar1 ~ That is also an interesting question. The plain wood used appears to be acacia; It is actually a nice timber and polishes well see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acacia ...the common desert thorn tree wood. Sometimes the woodwork at the Butt is wrapped in wolf skin...a Talisman treatment protecting the firer from evil spirits...I think the answer is plain basic necessity.

The trend in Ibaathi Oman was no nonsense practical with little high decoration...There was little that anyone could point to as ostentatious and gold decoration was somewhat considered as "over the top"..

The barrels are all imported mainly from Persia though it has been claimed that German barrels may also be in the mixture. There is a degree of showmanship in all these weapons in that largely they were for show and for parading in front of VIP s...

How many of these weapons were fired in anger is questionable..and experts in this field Icoman have mentioned this on passing. See http://www.klm-mra.be/icomam/downloads/issue07.pdf

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Pukka Bundook]

Good morning Ibrahiim,

Thank you for the link in your first post of this thread, It is Very interesting!

From the forts to the date -palms and their uses, to the falaj/aelaj, to silver work. Time flew by as I read through it.
Thank you again.
Also, thank you for the 'new' link that I have yet to read.

As these barrels were mainly made in Persia, do they also show up on Persian arms? Logic would dictate so, but logic does not always apply.

I gather by what you say, that the stamps at the breech and tang are those of the barrel maker. Thank you for that.
RE. use;
I have seen barrels of this type where the touch-holes and pan are quite eroded from gasses, so it would appear some were used quite heavily.
Whether this was at festivities or what I have no way of telling!

Thanks again,
Richard.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Good morning Ibrahiim,

Thank you for the link in your first post of this thread, It is Very interesting!

From the forts to the date -palms and their uses, to the falaj/aelaj, to silver work. Time flew by as I read through it.
Thank you again.
Also, thank you for the 'new' link that I have yet to read.

As these barrels were mainly made in Persia, do they also show up on Persian arms? Logic would dictate so, but logic does not always apply.

I gather by what you say, that the stamps at the breech and tang are those of the barrel maker. Thank you for that.
RE. use;
I have seen barrels of this type where the touch-holes and pan are quite eroded from gasses, so it would appear some were used quite heavily.
Whether this was at festivities or what I have no way of telling!

Thanks again,
Richard.

Salaams Pukka Bundook...Im on a shocking computer in Doha airport...and on my way to Casablanca...yes the worn touch hole means lots of use..was it hunting...or fighting? or pageant or all of these? A lot of these barrels blew up...separated at the first barrel joint...likely through too much or the wrong powder being used... probably modern powder...

Regards,

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[BANDOOK]

Saalam Ibhraahim,enjoy your morrocon trip,please post pictures of the souks selling morrocon arms,guess lots must be tourists stuff,but u will see originals too,now the moroccon govt does not allow exports and are protected,so I was told,cheers rajesh

[Pukka Bundook]

Dear Ibrahiim,

thank you for taking the trouble to reply with less than best equipment at the airport!

It appears a little unusual to me that a percentage of these barrels bust at 'the first joint' as pressure is rather low away from the breech.
I wonder if they were made more for ornament than for use?
If they were burst with modern powder of some kind, this would mean continued use, maybe at celebrations and the like.
Are you aware of any used in this manner?

It would appear that my title is miss-leading, as these barrels appear Persian & not Omani at all.

I have been searching on-line for Persian arms of this type, but found little.
Maybe I should catch up with Manouchehr again..........it has been a long time since we spoke!
One further question if I may;
The two stamps on the tang of the barrel; are these names?.....or maker's marks?

Thank you for your time,

Kind regards,
Richard.

[David R]

Bursting is often caused by a blockage rather than overloading. I would suspect multiple loads, as in the shooter didn't realise the previous one had not gone off............ I loaned a musket out to an inexperienced shooter for a re-enactment once, never again. I had to extract 3 unfired blank rounds when I got it back off him.

[Pukka Bundook]

David,

Yes, an air-space/gap between powder and projectile will do it, but it still sounds odd that Ibrahiim has seen quite a few that let go all at the same place, described as the first joint. (Apparently about 1/3 of the way from breech to muzzle) I have no good idea why this should be a consistent place to blow.

Best wishes,
Richard.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

David,

Yes, an air-space/gap between powder and projectile will do it, but it still sounds odd that Ibrahiim has seen quite a few that let go all at the same place, described as the first joint. (Apparently about 1/3 of the way from breech to muzzle) I have no good idea why this should be a consistent place to blow.

Best wishes,
Richard.

Hi Richard.
It is unusual for these barrels to burst in the same location, the so called first ring each time. Hmmmm. I'm wondering if these Omani barrels have a larger breech chamber as compared to the actual bore size at the muzzle end? Similar to the Torador barrels, which I'm convinced do have. If so, and the taper begins near that first ring, that might be the reason for the failure at that point. Improperly loaded, you could end up with a bore obstruction similar to what David mentions above. I've never seen one of these barrels first hand, but they appear to have a threaded breech plug. (?) If so, it would be interesting to remove the breech plug in one of these barrels to see if that's the case. A barrel that had been burst would be a good opportunity to try this. Meantime, a small piece of wire through the vent hole and measuring that length (less the barrel wall thickness) and comparing it to the bore size at the muzzle end might give you an idea. Just a thought.
Rick.

[Pukka Bundook]

Good morning Rick,

I believe Ibrahiim has shown pictures of some of these blown and shortened barrels, and the rear part has been turned into a short barrel of maybe 15 inches in length.
I think what Ibrahiim means by the first joint, is where the first ribbon of steel, (or the first tube, depending on how the barrel was constructed) is joined to the second barrel section.
This old manner of making barrels was often used in Spain, and was a very sound practice....they rarely blew apart in proof or afterwards.
The tubes were overlapped, and forge -welded in place.

If Ibrahiim could confirm this, it would help us see through this murky subject much better!
Re. breech-plugs;
In Manouchehr's very good articles on Persian arms in Classic Firearms, he says that in Persia, the screwed in breech-plug was not trusted, and that they much preferred a soldered(!) in plug, or one forge-welded in place.
I believe he also said that Western barrel imported into Persia, often had the threaded plug removed and one welded in instead. I think this will mean thet even though these Persian barrels have tangs, they will not normally be threaded in place.

Best wishes,
Richard.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Good morning Rick,

I believe Ibrahiim has shown pictures of some of these blown and shortened barrels, and the rear part has been turned into a short barrel of maybe 15 inches in length.
I think what Ibrahiim means by the first joint, is where the first ribbon of steel, (or the first tube, depending on how the barrel was constructed) is joined to the second barrel section.
This old manner of making barrels was often used in Spain, and was a very sound practice....they rarely blew apart in proof or afterwards.
The tubes were overlapped, and forge -welded in place.

If Ibrahiim could confirm this, it would help us see through this murky subject much better!
Re. breech-plugs;
In Manouchehr's very good articles on Persian arms in Classic Firearms, he says that in Persia, the screwed in breech-plug was not trusted, and that they much preferred a soldered(!) in plug, or one forge-welded in place.
I believe he also said that Western barrel imported into Persia, often had the threaded plug removed and one welded in instead. I think this will mean thet even though these Persian barrels have tangs, they will not normally be threaded in place.

Best wishes,
Richard.

Salaams Pukka Bundook ~ Sorry for the delay I was in Casablanca ! My couple examples of blown barrels are shown at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ight=Omani+Guns . I have another not shown...will try for a picture if it is still in my store,....of a blown example which was stuffed apparently with gunpowder and thrown in a fire by some children who then ran off...luckily as the entire barrel is blown apart ....I agree that the barrels I show are simply parted company with the rest of the barrel rather than blown off... Some people have used these short lengths as short barrels as examples of childrens guns or even as some sort of pistol arrangements ...completely wrongly in my view but it is amazing what people will buy !...Regarding the stamp...I believe these are makers stamps...and I also agree that the majority of barrels in Oman are of Persian make...though Icoman suggest there are also German variants...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[rickystl]

Hello all.
OK. Now I understand. A two-piece barrel joined together by forge welding. That makes sense. So the barrels appear to have become dis-joined or seperated at the weld when forced to endure the worst possible stress conditions (over loaded, multiple loads, bore obstruction, etc.). That first ring, or joint where the two pieces overlap, would be the weak spot in the barrel, if forced to burst.
I'm sure these barrels would be unlikely to burst with NORMAL loads of black powder and soft lead balls. But even a one-piece steel barrel can fail if improperly loaded and/or forced to submit to excess stess.
Thanks for the knowledge here and an interesting Thread.
Rick.

[Pukka Bundook]

Update to this old thread;
Having now two barrels of this type in hand, the barrel interiors have a somewhat constricted breech for the last few inches, and do not open out into a larger powder chamber as we so often encounter on Torador barrels.
Both barrels are a joy to look at, and are very slim and beautifully made. Both will be stocked up, (as time permits!)

Best,
Richard.

[rickystl]

Hi Richard.

One day, one of these barrels will come my way. LOL

The slightly restricted area the last few inches towards the breech is interesting. I just wonder what their thinking was in regards to ballistics. Hmmm. The more I seem to learn about these barrels, the more confused I become. LOL !! If you get a chance, please post some photos.
The re-stocking should make for an interesting project. For sure, they have to be the most beautiful looking barrels I've ever seen. Imagine the man hours that went into making just one barrel. Boggles the mind. Again, congrats on receiving them.

Rick

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

One aspect of loading these barrels springs to mind... The ammunition. These round lead balls were rammed so hard down the barrel that they became elongated ...ironically more like the shape of modern bullets. The most common cause of barrels parting was the use of modern powder often using the contents of Martini Henry ammo..coupled with ramming some sort of plug or bullet down the barrel making the breach create too much pressure and the resulting barrel parting at the first join...or worse the catastrophic disintegration of the entire breach section and peeling back of the entire gun barrel at that point

[Pukka Bundook]

Salaams Ibrahiim,

The parting of these barrels is a puzzlement to me, but well understand that a modern nitro powder is more than capable of such destruction.

These are the barrels that Robin Wiggington said were from "another part of India " when addressing two such barrels in Tipu Sultan's collection.
(Stocked up actually in a more modern European style, with snapping mechanisms and self-opening pans!)
Elgood believes Persian, though.

What I Do Not understand is;
Why do we not see these barrels on Persian arms, (correct me if I am wrong)
Or on Indian arms very often? I know of the two previously mentioned in Tipu Sultan's armoury, and One other from Sind, stocked in the Afghan style.
One would imagine wherever they came from before being traded into Oman, there would have been Some of them left in the country of origin.

Of interest is the fact that the cartouches in Tipu's barrels had Also been removed, so these and the ones you have Ibrahiim, may have had said cartouches removed for a Very long time!
Question if I may Ibrahiim;
Have you seen any of these barrels with the silver cartouche still in place?

Thank you for your time.
Richard.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Salaams Ibrahiim,

The parting of these barrels is a puzzlement to me, but well understand that a modern nitro powder is more than capable of such destruction.

These are the barrels that Robin Wiggington said were from "another part of India " when addressing two such barrels in Tipu Sultan's collection.
(Stocked up actually in a more modern European style, with snapping mechanisms and self-opening pans!)
Elgood believes Persian, though.

What I Do Not understand is;
Why do we not see these barrels on Persian arms, (correct me if I am wrong)
Or on Indian arms very often? I know of the two previously mentioned in Tipu Sultan's armoury, and One other from Sind, stocked in the Afghan style.
One would imagine wherever they came from before being traded into Oman, there would have been Some of them left in the country of origin.

Of interest is the fact that the cartouches in Tipu's barrels had Also been removed, so these and the ones you have Ibrahiim, may have had said cartouches removed for a Very long time!
Question if I may Ibrahiim;
Have you seen any of these barrels with the silver cartouche still in place?

Thank you for your time.
Richard.

The answer is I don't know the answer! This stuff is getting very rare however...I would estimate the number of battle swords left in Oman at less than 20...and I have never seen a spear except in books/museums....ever. How many barrels are left out there... not many...Please see http://www.muscatdaily.com/Archive/O...d-viewing-1znc and my thread at Canons of Oman where it is considered at the time that a number of Abu Futilla were European/German.

[Pukka Bundook]

Thank you for your reply, Ibrahiim.

Sad to think there are so few left out 'in the wild'!
Thank you for your link, a very interesting read, thouhg I had read it previously. :-)

Although some think possibly German origin for barrels of this type, I think the much stronger nod goes to Persia, as there is a Very close relationship (To me at any rate) between the ornamentation of the priming pan, And the guard finials found on the pulouar type of sword.
(The same ornamentation can also be seen on the rear sight of these barrels. )
Why this " dragon" design was so popular I don't know. But it is not the Only thing I don't know!
I have been looking on -line at arms from up in Sind and into Afghanistan, and there are a few of these barrels to be seen from that area! They are to be seen stocked up in the Afghan/ Sindi manner with the wide -flared buttstock. As this area of the world opens up into Persia, (Iran) the case seems Very strong for the latter being the origin of these barrels.

I will find and attach a photo of the pulouar hilt as time permits.

Best regards,
Richard.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Pukka Bundook, It is interesting that the dragon finials and dragons on tiles etc seems to have migrated across from Chinese to Persian designs and in the usual way that artisans were like spoils of war ...winner takes all...The classic Dragon style is the Dragon Chasing Fiery Pearl form like the style on the round plate below with a big central dragon and lesser dragons around the border...although the finials on quillons are a clear offshoot focused upon the dragon heads only...seen also on dragon head/serpentine locks on guns across a wide spectrum.

The Persian painting from FARIDUN IN THE GUISE OF A DRAGON TESTS HIS SONS: ILLUSTRATED FOLIO (F.42) FROM THE SHAHNAMEH OF SHAH TAHMASP, ATTRIBUTED TO AQA MIRAK, PERSIA, TABRIZ,illustrated with a white horse bottom right in the picture. ...Also displayed is Rostam fighting the big blue dragon about to slash it with his sword and many other examples in architecture, painting, metalworking, sculpture, ceramics,and illustrations on calligraphy and poetry etc etc display examples from Chinese influence including dragon form on Persian artefacts.

Dragon handles often adorn ewars and Jugs from Persia..also illustrated below. The Mughal rulers of India, who descended from rulers of Persia, inherited a taste for Chinese ceramics from their royal predecessors. Both Persian and Mughal painting frequently include images of Chinese ceramics, attesting to their popularity.

The black coloured Quillons with Dragon Finials is example of the use of dragons in Timurid weaponry similarly pictured in Islamic Arms by the late Anthony North..made of Jade.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Flicking back to guns... As you say there are two places where a dragon is included in Abu Futila design ...The pan and accompanying metalwork showing a dragons head and secondly The rear sight unit....

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Pukka Bundook]

Thank you for adding these photos Ibrahiim, they do show the dragon well, and relationship between the sword finials and pan area.

All I can say is that there is more likelihood of these barrels coming from Persia or Northern India/Afghanistan, than there is of them coming from Germany as some think, and this because of the dragon heads.
I do not know of any Germanic tradition of using dragon heads on gun parts, Other than the serpent which holds the match....and cannons at the mouth.
Having said that, Germanic and Italian barrels from the 1500's could indeed be fluted Very like these!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Thank you for adding these photos Ibrahiim, they do show the dragon well, and relationship between the sword finials and pan area.

All I can say is that there is more likelihood of these barrels coming from Persia or Northern India/Afghanistan, than there is of them coming from Germany as some think, and this because of the dragon heads.
I do not know of any Germanic tradition of using dragon heads on gun parts, Other than the serpent which holds the match....and cannons at the mouth.
Having said that, Germanic and Italian barrels from the 1500's could indeed be fluted Very like these!

Salaams Pukka Bundook~I have seen Portuguese and other European dragon/serpent locks on guns and whilst searching for a European armoury thread at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22315
I stumbled on this below...

Please see https://books.google.com.om/books?id...tols&f=falseon about page 127...128 showing dragon/serpentine locks. Fine detail on page 127 and the following pages goes on to further discuss the origins of the Dragon Motif on European guns.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Pukka Bundook]

Dear Ibrahiim,

I too have seen dragon/serpent decoration on European Locks, but it is on the barrels, (apart from cannon), that I can not recall seeing dragons represented. The decoration on these in the O. P still appears Indo-Persian....with more of the emphasis on the Persian part!

As time permits, I will spend longer looking though! Some Italian barrels once owned by Henry V111 were fluted Vey like these in question, but do not recall any such dragon device around the pan.

Interesting subject, and one that is as painstaking as an archaeological dig!

Below are comparison between pulouar finials and pan decoration;

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Pukka Bundook ~That is an interesting play on the geometric figure 3 on sword and Matchlock..probably Talismanic...and looking at the rest of the pan construction I see a hollow rectangle reminding me of the hollow form on Talismanic archeological nails...apparently to prevent the Devil climbing up...See #10 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...itectural+Nail . All very interesting.

See~ http://www.omanisilver.com/contents/...ck.html:shrug:
for their rendition of MATCHLOCK/GUNS...with an exellent historical set of references on the Omani Matchlock and associated equipments..

On origin of species I saw this report recently at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket viz;

Quote"The arquebus made its way to the island of Sri Lanka (formerly Ceylon), though the date is disputed. The earliest date is the 14th century where a copperplate inscription of Parakarama Bahu IV (1302-1326) refers to two persons who were declared exempt from certain taxes which included "gun licenses". Many believe that it was the Portuguese who first brought over muskets during their conquest of the Sri Lankan coastline and low lands in 1505, as they regularly used short barreled matchlocks during combat.

However, P.E.P.Deraniyagala points out that the Sinhala term for gun, ‘bondikula’ matches the Arabic term for gun, ‘bunduk’. Also, certain technical aspects of the early Sinhalese matchlock were similar to the matchlocks used in the Middle East, thus forming the generally accepted theory that the musket was not entirely new to the island by the time the Portuguese came.

In any case, soon native Sri Lankan kingdoms, most notably the kingdom of Sitawaka and the Kandyan Kingdom, manufactured hundreds of Sinhalese muskets, with a unique bifurcated stock, longer barrel and smaller calibre, which made it more efficient in directing and using the energy of the gunpowder. These were mastered by native soldiers to the point where, according to the Portuguese chronicler, Queirós, they could "fire at night to put out a match" and "by day at 60 paces would sever a knife with four or five bullets" and "send as many on the same spot in the target."Unquote.

[Pukka Bundook]

Dear Ibrahiim,

Very interesting regarding the talismanic nails!
I think you have "nailed" it!
The hollow rectangle you see in front of the pan is actually cut out in both directions, so is Exactly the same as the nails you show in the other thread.


This to me removes all doubt that the barrels are indeed Persian rather than German. Thank you for that!!

There is good reason to protect the touch-hole area from evil....do not want the devil messing up your powder igniting when it counts. :-)
I have attached your 'Nail " photos for the sake of clarity. Thank you again!
The second link you kindly posted will not work.

[Pukka Bundook]

Also wish to say I have recently found more photos of this type of barrel,
One stocked up in Sindi fashion, and one only yesterday in regular Torador fashion!
Please pardon poor pictures.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Dear Ibrahiim,

Very interesting regarding the talismanic nails!
I think you have "nailed" it!
The hollow rectangle you see in front of the pan is actually cut out in both directions, so is Exactly the same as the nails you show in the other thread.


This to me removes all doubt that the barrels are indeed Persian rather than German. Thank you for that!!

There is good reason to protect the touch-hole area from evil....do not want the devil messing up your powder igniting when it counts. :-)
I have attached your 'Nail " photos for the sake of clarity. Thank you again!
The second link you kindly posted will not work.

Indeed having the Devil mess with that part of the weapon could prove costly...Thank you for making the bridge between the architectural talismanic nail and the gun architecture..which I agree fairly well supports the Persian concept although more evidence linking Sinhalese weapons may surface...not least the written proof that THE PURCHASE of 200 or more weapons was made by the Omanis a few hundred years ago as seen at omanisilver.com On that subject please try http://omanisilver.com/index.html