a new member in my khanda family

dralin23 · 17th August 2008, 06:43 PM

hi there all over the world...!
i will show you some pictures from my brand new "familymember".
i think it is an khanda sword from the moghul time ( 18.th. ct.??)
the bladepatern is not as usual than there are not the common spatula tip.
before the cleaning i can see many small fightingkniks at the edge.
these sword is 84cm in the total lenght. the blade is 73cm long, 5cm wide at the widest point at nearby the tip and 4cm before the hilt. the hilt is, i thnik silver covered and with flowers decorated. in the center from each flower is an small gold dot.the blade was made from an very good wootz and clear visible damascus steel. at the blade is an whole what was filled with an yellow collored metall. i don´t know if it is bras ore gold. i will proof it in the next time. if some one from the members can give me some nearer information to these sword i was very fankfull.( sorry for my poor english i hope evrey man can understand what i will say

the first picture show it in the uncleaned condition.

dralin23 · 17th August 2008, 06:59 PM

more pictures..

Jim McDougall · 17th August 2008, 08:55 PM

Very nice Dralin! and thank you for all the great photos which really give us some good illustrations of the motif on the hilt and patterns in the blade.
While this khanda is likely of the latter 18th century into the mid 19th, it is actually a Rajput example, and the blade is of course a slashing blade as favored by the sword combat of these warriors.

With these photos, the interesting zoomorphic creature at the top of the knuckleguard can be clearly seen, and I would like to know more on what these might be intended to represent...the makara possibly? Also, the floral motif is well illustrated and we have had some interesting discussions on what type flower might be represented; what symbolism might be intended?

Tatyana Dianova · 17th August 2008, 09:07 PM

Hi Stefan,
Congratulations on the very nice Khanda and very good restoration job! Your family of Khandas (by the way, how many do you have already? 10? 20?

) has some very interesting and unusual members.
This Khanda is not simply a beautiful piece, on which both the hilt and the blade are very good preserved; it has also some interesting features. You've mentioned already the blade and the tip shape (here I cannot help much), but what strikes me is its hilt, which is almost identical to the hilt on the tulwar I have:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5022
It seems that my tulwar was made somewhere around first half of 19th century. I think because of the similar hilt your Khanda was made in the same period of time.
Another question: how common is this type of a hilt on Khandas? I've seen such hilts on tulwars but never on Khanda

Do you have a Khanda in your family with this type of hilt? Can you post a picture?

clockwork · 17th August 2008, 10:22 PM

That is a very impresive sword thanks for the pics

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2008, 12:52 AM

Tatyana, the Rajputs used both tulwars and khandas, though the tulwar hilt was not typically mounted on the bolstered straight blade of the khanda. The khanda typically carried the 'Hindu baskethilt' and was well known not only by the Mahrattas, with whom these swords originated, but by Rajputs and Sikhs in the northern regions.
Extremely nice tulwar of yours in the link BTW!!!
Best regards,
Jim

dralin23 · 18th August 2008, 10:12 AM

thank you jim, tatjana
only short first answer. hat the web site from akaal arms you can find also an other khanda sword with an tulwar hilt . here are the link.http://www.akaalarms.com/largeEdged/...khandB.html.in the description he said these sword is from the late 18.ct. the hilt should be older. i don´t know. what is your opinion??
regards, stefan

Tatyana Dianova · 18th August 2008, 12:36 PM

Stefan, if I only knew... I'm just like you - not a specialist, just a person who looks for the information in books, on the web, on this forum. So, tulwar hilt appears occasionally on the Khanda blade - never knew about it

Maybe there were two different styles and schools of Khanda fencing?
The hilt on the Akaal's Khanda (the correct link is http://www.akaalarms.com/largeEdged/.../ewkhandB.html ) is definitely older than our hilts are. I remember reading (in Rawson?) that later hilts and swords are more extensively decorated than older ones, which were simpler. I personally think that both our swords were made in the end of 18th – beginning of the 19th century. But let’s wait what specialists like Jens, Rand or Ward will tell...

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2008, 04:40 PM

Tatyana is right, lets see what the specialists say.

dralin23 · 18th August 2008, 08:19 PM

hi jim and tatjana,
it is intresting to read your opinions, so i can learn more over my swords.
i wrote in my past posts that over these kinds of swords is no one realy good reference book is available ,so is these forum an good platform to discuse my ore yours weapons. so, tajana

you think that these hilt is from the 19.th ct., please look in the book "on damascus steel" from leo figiel page 83. there are an shamshir from the moghul time late 17.th.ct. with also such an hilt like my. the only different is that these hilt is gold damascent. ore look in the page 93 there are also an tulwar with an silver plated hilt with an flower pattern. these sword is also dated to the 17. th. ct.( moghul)
i think my sword is from the moghul time. i never see before an rajasthan khanda with such an tulwar hilt and also the blade is not rajasthan for me.

ward · 18th August 2008, 09:52 PM

I would suggest that you have 18th-early 19th century piece. It is well executed but earlier pieces would be a little better detailed. You have to remember that figel and tirri both wrote vanity books. Figel was known to have bought a lot of married items and was mainly interested in flashy pieces. I like the piece and think it is a nice example would not mind owning it myself.

Atlantia · 18th August 2008, 10:15 PM

Its a beauty. I actually prefer the lines of the Tulwar hilted examples.
Lovely sword. I'd certainly find room for it at my place!

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2008, 11:03 PM

What you have noted is in degree quite true Stefan, the references on Indian weapons are limited mostly to the standard books that have been around for a long time. The only recent reference I recall offhand that has been published is the outstanding work by Elgood, "Hindu Arms and Ritual".

The Rawson book does note that the Rajputs of the northwest indeed fell under the domination of Islamic material culture, and the wootz blades were watered imitating crystalline damask favoring the preferred Mughal damask. In paintings earlier of Rajputs in battles against Mughals, Rawson notes that in one, a Rajput khanda is shown with the Indo Muslim hilt form (pp.27-29).
Apparantly most 18th century khandas have the narrow fretted reinforcements on the blade back and partially on the cutting side. It is interesting , however,that in Egerton (plate 24, 530T) a Rajput khanda with Indo Muslim hilt is shown in line drawing with heavy, fullered blade without reinforcements. Since the Egerton work is considered to be based primarily on extant contemporary examples and was written in 1884, it would seem that by that time the khanda type weapons with Indo Muslim hilt carried heavy, unreinforced and fullered blades.

In "Islamic Arms and Armour of Muslim India" by Dr. Syed Haider (Lahore,1991, p.177), the author notes, "...Muslim khandas were generally equipped with the Indo Muslim hilt. As a weapon, khanda was used by Rajputs, Mughals and Mahrattas".
In the same sense, Rawson notes (p.29) that with the 'sosun pattah', "...this Rajput form is always found mounted in the Hindu basket hilt, whereas the other, Islamic , form has an Indo Muslim hilt".

It is indeed extremely difficult to accurately place time period, or in many cases geographic or cultural identification to the weapons of India, but it seems quite likely that the late 18th-early 19th century period is correct. As we have agreed, accurate reference material on these weapons is in many cases flawed in certain areas, but using them as benchmarks and reinforcing with study of historical material is the best method to follow.

With the information I have found, I think Stefan's inclination toward Mughal is well placed, as the hilt is very close to those of Rajasthan regions in early 19th century, the blade reinforced in traditional style and in the damask as noted.

Just my opinion based on references at hand.

Jens Nordlunde · 19th August 2008, 04:03 PM

Thank you for the confidence Tatyana, but I am no specialist, just a collector like most of the forum members. When we are at it, try to compare the hilt decoration on your tulwar to the one attached. Quite a likeness wouldn’t you say? This could mean that they both come from the same area, but they don’t have to. They could come from areas very far apart, maybe be looted and then copied, as one of many other explanations.

Dralin has a very nice khanda with an unusual hilt. The blade is, to my opinion, older than the hilt, and I think a close examination will show they were brought together at a later stage. Like Jim mentions, these hilts are likely to be end 18th to mid 19th century, but it is hard to tell, as too little is known about them, but personally I would say first half of 19th century. These silver plated and decorated hilts must come from the same area, as the technique is the same, but although you see these hilts now and again, I have not seen anyone mention a place of origin. I feel sure we will, time given, find a ‘label’ for this kind of decorations, but at the moment I would keep the question open.

Dralin, is the blade flexible?

dralin23 · 19th August 2008, 07:19 PM

hi all,
at first thanks for all these opinions, it s very intresting to read al these. no fear "atlantia" i like these sword to and it have a good place in my collection. it is not so important for me if it is 50 ore 100 years older ore not. i only would like know as much as possible over the history from these khanda. if it can tell me his story personal so i must not ask. jens, the blade is only (circa) 1,5mm thick but is not so flexible as it shine, it is an good steel and an realy stought blade.
jim you ask if i had also an khanda with an hindu basket hilt in my collection. well there is one. i will post some pictures now. it is an very good khanda( my very first) . the blad is from an very fine wootz damast steel. my camera is not good enough to make an picture from the pattern but i hope you and the other members can see the beautifull features from these sword.

dralin23 · 19th August 2008, 07:22 PM

some more pictures...

Jim McDougall · 19th August 2008, 07:54 PM

Absolutely outstanding Stefan!!! and you are doing great with photos, it is wonderful to see the detail.
Note the distinct hybridization in this with the guard of the Hindu basket hilt incorporated into a Indo Muslim style hilt, the quillons under the guard, bulbous grip, disc pommel etc.
Classic examples both!!! Thank you for sharing them.

Tatyana Dianova · 20th August 2008, 09:11 PM

It is a very interesting and educating thread indeed, thank you Jim, Jens and Ward. And of course thank you Stefan for presenting your beautiful and rare swords to all of us.
Jens, you always show absolutely stunning, museum quality pieces as examples which are professionally pictured. I always wanted to ask: are they from your own collection (if it is not a secret)?
Is it a tulwar you show in this thread? Maybe it was already discussed on this forum? If not, please post a whole sword picture, I love to see your swords

Jens Nordlunde · 21st August 2008, 01:09 PM

I have, in a PM, been asked if I have had the stamp translated, and as it may be of interest to others I bring the translation here.

The translation says, ‘God help us in the upcoming victory’. It is more than likely that other blades with the same stamp can be found, as making a stamp could not have been quite easy, so when it was made, it would most likely have been used on several blades.

17th August 2008, 06:43 PM	#1
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	a new member in my khanda family hi there all over the world...! i will show you some pictures from my brand new "familymember". i think it is an khanda sword from the moghul time ( 18.th. ct.??) the bladepatern is not as usual than there are not the common spatula tip. before the cleaning i can see many small fightingkniks at the edge. these sword is 84cm in the total lenght. the blade is 73cm long, 5cm wide at the widest point at nearby the tip and 4cm before the hilt. the hilt is, i thnik silver covered and with flowers decorated. in the center from each flower is an small gold dot.the blade was made from an very good wootz and clear visible damascus steel. at the blade is an whole what was filled with an yellow collored metall. i don´t know if it is bras ore gold. i will proof it in the next time. if some one from the members can give me some nearer information to these sword i was very fankfull.( sorry for my poor english i hope evrey man can understand what i will say the first picture show it in the uncleaned condition. Attached Images

17th August 2008, 06:59 PM	#2
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	some more pict.... more pictures.. Attached Images

18th August 2008, 11:03 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,937	What you have noted is in degree quite true Stefan, the references on Indian weapons are limited mostly to the standard books that have been around for a long time. The only recent reference I recall offhand that has been published is the outstanding work by Elgood, "Hindu Arms and Ritual". The Rawson book does note that the Rajputs of the northwest indeed fell under the domination of Islamic material culture, and the wootz blades were watered imitating crystalline damask favoring the preferred Mughal damask. In paintings earlier of Rajputs in battles against Mughals, Rawson notes that in one, a Rajput khanda is shown with the Indo Muslim hilt form (pp.27-29). Apparantly most 18th century khandas have the narrow fretted reinforcements on the blade back and partially on the cutting side. It is interesting , however,that in Egerton (plate 24, 530T) a Rajput khanda with Indo Muslim hilt is shown in line drawing with heavy, fullered blade without reinforcements. Since the Egerton work is considered to be based primarily on extant contemporary examples and was written in 1884, it would seem that by that time the khanda type weapons with Indo Muslim hilt carried heavy, unreinforced and fullered blades. In "Islamic Arms and Armour of Muslim India" by Dr. Syed Haider (Lahore,1991, p.177), the author notes, "...Muslim khandas were generally equipped with the Indo Muslim hilt. As a weapon, khanda was used by Rajputs, Mughals and Mahrattas". In the same sense, Rawson notes (p.29) that with the 'sosun pattah', "...this Rajput form is always found mounted in the Hindu basket hilt, whereas the other, Islamic , form has an Indo Muslim hilt". It is indeed extremely difficult to accurately place time period, or in many cases geographic or cultural identification to the weapons of India, but it seems quite likely that the late 18th-early 19th century period is correct. As we have agreed, accurate reference material on these weapons is in many cases flawed in certain areas, but using them as benchmarks and reinforcing with study of historical material is the best method to follow. With the information I have found, I think Stefan's inclination toward Mughal is well placed, as the hilt is very close to those of Rajasthan regions in early 19th century, the blade reinforced in traditional style and in the damask as noted. Just my opinion based on references at hand. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 18th August 2008 at 11:27 PM.

19th August 2008, 04:03 PM	#14
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for the confidence Tatyana, but I am no specialist, just a collector like most of the forum members. When we are at it, try to compare the hilt decoration on your tulwar to the one attached. Quite a likeness wouldn’t you say? This could mean that they both come from the same area, but they don’t have to. They could come from areas very far apart, maybe be looted and then copied, as one of many other explanations. Dralin has a very nice khanda with an unusual hilt. The blade is, to my opinion, older than the hilt, and I think a close examination will show they were brought together at a later stage. Like Jim mentions, these hilts are likely to be end 18th to mid 19th century, but it is hard to tell, as too little is known about them, but personally I would say first half of 19th century. These silver plated and decorated hilts must come from the same area, as the technique is the same, but although you see these hilts now and again, I have not seen anyone mention a place of origin. I feel sure we will, time given, find a ‘label’ for this kind of decorations, but at the moment I would keep the question open. Dralin, is the blade flexible? Attached Images

19th August 2008, 07:19 PM	#15
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	hi all, at first thanks for all these opinions, it s very intresting to read al these. no fear "atlantia" i like these sword to and it have a good place in my collection. it is not so important for me if it is 50 ore 100 years older ore not. i only would like know as much as possible over the history from these khanda. if it can tell me his story personal so i must not ask. jens, the blade is only (circa) 1,5mm thick but is not so flexible as it shine, it is an good steel and an realy stought blade. jim you ask if i had also an khanda with an hindu basket hilt in my collection. well there is one. i will post some pictures now. it is an very good khanda( my very first) . the blad is from an very fine wootz damast steel. my camera is not good enough to make an picture from the pattern but i hope you and the other members can see the beautifull features from these sword. Attached Images

17th August 2008, 08:55 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,937	Very nice Dralin! and thank you for all the great photos which really give us some good illustrations of the motif on the hilt and patterns in the blade. While this khanda is likely of the latter 18th century into the mid 19th, it is actually a Rajput example, and the blade is of course a slashing blade as favored by the sword combat of these warriors. With these photos, the interesting zoomorphic creature at the top of the knuckleguard can be clearly seen, and I would like to know more on what these might be intended to represent...the makara possibly? Also, the floral motif is well illustrated and we have had some interesting discussions on what type flower might be represented; what symbolism might be intended?

17th August 2008, 09:07 PM	#4
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	Hi Stefan, Congratulations on the very nice Khanda and very good restoration job! Your family of Khandas (by the way, how many do you have already? 10? 20? ) has some very interesting and unusual members. This Khanda is not simply a beautiful piece, on which both the hilt and the blade are very good preserved; it has also some interesting features. You've mentioned already the blade and the tip shape (here I cannot help much), but what strikes me is its hilt, which is almost identical to the hilt on the tulwar I have: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5022 It seems that my tulwar was made somewhere around first half of 19th century. I think because of the similar hilt your Khanda was made in the same period of time. Another question: how common is this type of a hilt on Khandas? I've seen such hilts on tulwars but never on Khanda Do you have a Khanda in your family with this type of hilt? Can you post a picture?

17th August 2008, 10:22 PM	#5
clockwork Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 93	That is a very impresive sword thanks for the pics

18th August 2008, 12:52 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,937	Tatyana, the Rajputs used both tulwars and khandas, though the tulwar hilt was not typically mounted on the bolstered straight blade of the khanda. The khanda typically carried the 'Hindu baskethilt' and was well known not only by the Mahrattas, with whom these swords originated, but by Rajputs and Sikhs in the northern regions. Extremely nice tulwar of yours in the link BTW!!! Best regards, Jim

18th August 2008, 10:12 AM	#7
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	thank you jim, tatjana only short first answer. hat the web site from akaal arms you can find also an other khanda sword with an tulwar hilt . here are the link.http://www.akaalarms.com/largeEdged/...khandB.html.in the description he said these sword is from the late 18.ct. the hilt should be older. i don´t know. what is your opinion?? regards, stefan

18th August 2008, 12:36 PM	#8
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	Stefan, if I only knew... I'm just like you - not a specialist, just a person who looks for the information in books, on the web, on this forum. So, tulwar hilt appears occasionally on the Khanda blade - never knew about it Maybe there were two different styles and schools of Khanda fencing? The hilt on the Akaal's Khanda (the correct link is http://www.akaalarms.com/largeEdged/.../ewkhandB.html ) is definitely older than our hilts are. I remember reading (in Rawson?) that later hilts and swords are more extensively decorated than older ones, which were simpler. I personally think that both our swords were made in the end of 18th – beginning of the 19th century. But let’s wait what specialists like Jens, Rand or Ward will tell...

18th August 2008, 04:40 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,937	Tatyana is right, lets see what the specialists say.

18th August 2008, 08:19 PM	#10
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	hi jim and tatjana, it is intresting to read your opinions, so i can learn more over my swords. i wrote in my past posts that over these kinds of swords is no one realy good reference book is available ,so is these forum an good platform to discuse my ore yours weapons. so, tajana you think that these hilt is from the 19.th ct., please look in the book "on damascus steel" from leo figiel page 83. there are an shamshir from the moghul time late 17.th.ct. with also such an hilt like my. the only different is that these hilt is gold damascent. ore look in the page 93 there are also an tulwar with an silver plated hilt with an flower pattern. these sword is also dated to the 17. th. ct.( moghul) i think my sword is from the moghul time. i never see before an rajasthan khanda with such an tulwar hilt and also the blade is not rajasthan for me.

18th August 2008, 09:52 PM	#11
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I would suggest that you have 18th-early 19th century piece. It is well executed but earlier pieces would be a little better detailed. You have to remember that figel and tirri both wrote vanity books. Figel was known to have bought a lot of married items and was mainly interested in flashy pieces. I like the piece and think it is a nice example would not mind owning it myself.

18th August 2008, 10:15 PM	#12
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Its a beauty. I actually prefer the lines of the Tulwar hilted examples. Lovely sword. I'd certainly find room for it at my place!

19th August 2008, 07:22 PM	#16
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	some more pictures... Attached Images

19th August 2008, 07:54 PM	#17
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,937	Absolutely outstanding Stefan!!! and you are doing great with photos, it is wonderful to see the detail. Note the distinct hybridization in this with the guard of the Hindu basket hilt incorporated into a Indo Muslim style hilt, the quillons under the guard, bulbous grip, disc pommel etc. Classic examples both!!! Thank you for sharing them.

20th August 2008, 09:11 PM	#18
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	It is a very interesting and educating thread indeed, thank you Jim, Jens and Ward. And of course thank you Stefan for presenting your beautiful and rare swords to all of us. Jens, you always show absolutely stunning, museum quality pieces as examples which are professionally pictured. I always wanted to ask: are they from your own collection (if it is not a secret)? Is it a tulwar you show in this thread? Maybe it was already discussed on this forum? If not, please post a whole sword picture, I love to see your swords

21st August 2008, 01:09 PM	#19
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I have, in a PM, been asked if I have had the stamp translated, and as it may be of interest to others I bring the translation here. The translation says, ‘God help us in the upcoming victory’. It is more than likely that other blades with the same stamp can be found, as making a stamp could not have been quite easy, so when it was made, it would most likely have been used on several blades.