what is this and where it comes from

Kubur · 5th April 2016, 09:48 AM

Hi,

This sword was sold recently.
It looks like an early touristic object.
But the blade is good and the guard is really well done.
It's a short sword with a full brass hilt.
Any idea??? Syrian, Arab, Turkish?
19th or 20th c.??

Best,
Kubur

mariusgmioc · 5th April 2016, 10:44 AM

Uncharacteristic sabre blade with a Saif hilt, thus I would consider it a SAIF.

In my opinion it would be extremely dificult to pinpoint the specific origin of this sword. My guess would be an Indian blade mounted somewhere in the Arabian Peninsula (maybe Damascus).

But I am merely speculating.

Kubur · 5th April 2016, 12:20 PM

Thank you Marius
But the trophies on the guard are VERY Ottoman.
Is it possible that it's simply a touristic sword made in Syria or Turkey?
But if it's touristic, it's really well made...

mariusgmioc · 5th April 2016, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Thank you Marius
But the trophies on the guard are VERY Ottoman.
Is it possible that it's simply a touristic sword made in Syria or Turkey?
But if it's touristic, it's really well made...

I would have some reservations calling it "touristic." How many tourists do you think will go all the way to Turkey/Syria/Arabia generally, just to buy a "touristic" sword?! More likely it was made for the local market, albeit not for the higher end of it.

Regarding the "trophies" on the hilt, I don't think they are very relevant since the hilt itself is not very Turkish. But I'm again speculating.

Let's hope there are more knowledgeable people who can shed more light on this one.

PS: It appears the blade was etched to give it a grayish-old appearance.

Battara · 5th April 2016, 04:29 PM

The hilt looks very Syrian to me, which was part of the Ottoman Empire.

digenis · 5th April 2016, 07:51 PM

Does the blade have an edge on it? I reminds me somewhat of swords made for Masonic ceremonies ("light of the orient", etc). Some of these swords were made fairly well.

harrywagner · 5th April 2016, 08:49 PM

How thick is the blade? It seems an unusual shape. The flat slab style makes me wonder if it was intended as something other than a weapon.

Battara · 5th April 2016, 10:40 PM

A couple of other options:

1. a cut down kilij/pala

2. a marriage

Kubur · 5th April 2016, 10:52 PM

The problem it's the third one that I see.
Maybe early 20th for early tourists
or a kind of standard equipment, military?
Why a short blade? tourist suitcase, child, on boat???

Kubur · 5th April 2016, 11:05 PM

another

Helleri · 6th April 2016, 04:07 PM

I could be way off on this...But I think I am seeing between the pictures a pretty clear casting line (a seam from casting with a two part mold). It looks like all the low points have been painted black (or in other words antiqued). The engraving doesn't have the kind of marks that push etching/chasing creates. But the faded incomplete lines of the etching look like what you get from casting. And the blade looks like it is pretty much a flat bar of homogeneous steel. It really looks like a prop blade. The kind of thing that would be used in stage acting, low budget movies, and parades/festivals. Maybe even a training blade?

Kubur · 6th April 2016, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helleri

I could be way off on this...But I think I am seeing between the pictures a pretty clear casting line (a seam from casting with a two part mold). It looks like all the low points have been painted black (or in other words antiqued). The engraving doesn't have the kind of marks that push etching/chasing creates. But the faded incomplete lines of the etching look like what you get from casting. And the blade looks like it is pretty much a flat bar of homogeneous steel. It really looks like a prop blade. The kind of thing that would be used in stage acting, low budget movies, and parades/festivals. Maybe even a training blade?

I have no problem with the cast as a lot of Ottoman objects were casted, look at our thread on the palaskas. I' m more concern by the blade... It's a shame to not have any help from the big specialists on this forum...

kahnjar1 · 6th April 2016, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I have no problem with the cast as a lot of Ottoman objects were casted, look at our thread on the palaskas. I' m more concern by the blade... It's a shame to not have any help from the big specialists on this forum...

Perhaps if you answered the questions posed re the blade, results might be more forthcoming. I believe some one asked if the blade was sharpened. Also some dimensions and profile details might help........and maybe some clear close ups of the blade itself?
You keep referring to this being Ottoman.....I would have thought that the Ottoman Empire was long gone by the time this sword was made........

mariusgmioc · 6th April 2016, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

A couple of other options:

1. a cut down kilij/pala

2. a marriage

Definitely not a cut down Kilij/Pala as there is absolutely no trace of the characteristic T-shaped spine and fuller.

Now, after seeing the second example, I believe it is much more likely a marriage between an immitation of a blade (cut from sheet steel) and an immitation of a Saif hilt.

mariusgmioc · 6th April 2016, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

another

To me, this one appears to be a purely decorative item I would hardly call a sword.

I might be wrong, but the blade appears to be made of flat sheet steel with some scandi grind to give it the appearance of an edge.

Also the angle between the hilt and the blade gives away a decorative poor immitation of a sword.

Now, after seeing this second example, I am pretty sure the first one is about the same. At first, the blade gave the appearance of a triangular (Shamshir-like) blade, but now I tend to believe is also plain sheet steel that might bend even if swung at an angle.

Kubur · 6th April 2016, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Perhaps if you answered the questions posed re the blade, results might be more forthcoming. I believe some one asked if the blade was sharpened. Also some dimensions and profile details might help........and maybe some clear close ups of the blade itself?
You keep referring to this being Ottoman.....I would have thought that the Ottoman Empire was long gone by the time this sword was made........

I don't think that I mentioned that I have this sword. So it will be diffcult for me to answer to these questions. There are the best photos that I have. I don't know if it was Ottoman, but you have to know that Ottoman empire lasted up to 1920ties...

Kubur · 6th April 2016, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Two years ago, while travelling to Jordan, I was quite surprised to find the local market flooded with Indian Khanjars in Arabic style that all sellers tried to sell as locally made.

In Syria too!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

... so, it wouldn't come as a surprise to me if even the hilt would be Indian.

I don't think. Touristic yes, but probably old and made in Syria or Turkey, until someone prove me that I'm wrong...

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

PS: Still didn't manage to fing a good quality genuine Shibryia dagger.

You are not the only one

mariusgmioc · 6th April 2016, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

probably old and made in Syria or Turkey, until someone prove me that I'm wrong...

Define "OLD"

Cut from sheet steel made through industrial lamination would still qualify it for old?

PS: I would bet that you are older than any of the two blades in the photos you posted.

ariel · 6th April 2016, 11:58 PM

I saw quite a few of very similar ones on the walls in Arab restaurants.

Helleri · 7th April 2016, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I have no problem with the cast as a lot of Ottoman objects were casted, look at our thread on the palaskas. I' m more concern by the blade... It's a shame to not have any help from the big specialists on this forum...

I have seen plenty of old casts, a lot of bronze ormolu in particular on clocks, boxes, and later applied work to case piece furniture. Even brass/pseudo-bronze ormolu for footed tables (eagle claw and goat hoof). Some acanthus leaf brass pieces as applied work as well.

Generally speaking they are fine and even on the older stuff. Cheap modern mass production casting in comparison tends to looks more like this from what I have seen. High thinner cast line in some spots, but rounded off, with flat wider parts (a sloppy cast line).

But it isn't the cast line (rather the quality of it) alone. It's that taken with everything else. The pattern balding out in some places. The black paint in the recesses of the pattern instead of copper chloride or zinc oxide build up. A tinge of brown smearing on some of the high points that looks like it could a thing layer of varnish. The wire wrap looking like it was part of the cast as well, instead of twisted wired actually wrapped on. Taken with the blade. It just looks cheap and newish to me.

Maybe I am being overtly analytical and it is leaving me too much reservations. But a lot of losses on past vintage and antique flips has taught me to look for what is wrong about a piece, before looking for what is right about a piece. And if I saw this at the local flea market, an estate sale, or the local auction house...I would pass

ariel · 7th April 2016, 03:39 AM

Sorry. The computer decided on its own to duplicate my post :-(((

" Matrix" is taking over?

harrywagner · 7th April 2016, 02:13 PM

It reminds me of the "beater" sword I purchased, and posted, recently. Sorry.

Kubur · 21st May 2016, 09:16 AM

Another one, sold recently
exactly the same but with the scabbard, any idea?
I still think at an old touristic sword around 1900...
from where Turkey or Syria???

5th April 2016, 09:48 AM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	what is this and where it comes from Hi, This sword was sold recently. It looks like an early touristic object. But the blade is good and the guard is really well done. It's a short sword with a full brass hilt. Any idea??? Syrian, Arab, Turkish? 19th or 20th c.?? Best, Kubur Attached Images

5th April 2016, 11:05 PM	#10
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	another Attached Images

7th April 2016, 02:13 PM	#22
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Beater sword It reminds me of the "beater" sword I purchased, and posted, recently. Sorry.

21st May 2016, 09:16 AM	#23
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Another one, sold recently exactly the same but with the scabbard, any idea? I still think at an old touristic sword around 1900... from where Turkey or Syria??? Attached Images

5th April 2016, 10:44 AM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Uncharacteristic sabre blade with a Saif hilt, thus I would consider it a SAIF. In my opinion it would be extremely dificult to pinpoint the specific origin of this sword. My guess would be an Indian blade mounted somewhere in the Arabian Peninsula (maybe Damascus). But I am merely speculating.

5th April 2016, 12:20 PM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Thank you Marius But the trophies on the guard are VERY Ottoman. Is it possible that it's simply a touristic sword made in Syria or Turkey? But if it's touristic, it's really well made...

5th April 2016, 04:29 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	The hilt looks very Syrian to me, which was part of the Ottoman Empire.

5th April 2016, 07:51 PM	#6
digenis Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 48	Does the blade have an edge on it? I reminds me somewhat of swords made for Masonic ceremonies ("light of the orient", etc). Some of these swords were made fairly well.

5th April 2016, 08:49 PM	#7
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	How thick is the blade? It seems an unusual shape. The flat slab style makes me wonder if it was intended as something other than a weapon.

5th April 2016, 10:40 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	A couple of other options: 1. a cut down kilij/pala 2. a marriage

5th April 2016, 10:52 PM	#9
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	The problem it's the third one that I see. Maybe early 20th for early tourists or a kind of standard equipment, military? Why a short blade? tourist suitcase, child, on boat???

6th April 2016, 04:07 PM	#11
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	I could be way off on this...But I think I am seeing between the pictures a pretty clear casting line (a seam from casting with a two part mold). It looks like all the low points have been painted black (or in other words antiqued). The engraving doesn't have the kind of marks that push etching/chasing creates. But the faded incomplete lines of the etching look like what you get from casting. And the blade looks like it is pretty much a flat bar of homogeneous steel. It really looks like a prop blade. The kind of thing that would be used in stage acting, low budget movies, and parades/festivals. Maybe even a training blade?

6th April 2016, 11:58 PM	#19
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I saw quite a few of very similar ones on the walls in Arab restaurants.

7th April 2016, 03:39 AM	#21
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sorry. The computer decided on its own to duplicate my post :-((( " Matrix" is taking over?