Sword for ID

fernando · 1st October 2011, 03:32 PM

This sabre has just been acquired by a friend, together with several other swords, all identifiable, except for this one.
The pictures are miserable; my digital camera batteries decided to let me down and i had to use my cell phone camera ( i wasn't at home to fetch spare batteries).
This should have been both for sharing with you the rather nice hilt decoration and also ask for the model identification but, all i hope now with these lousy pictures, is the sword ID.
The slightly curved blade is the pipe back tipe. The brass hilt, with seven bars, is fully engraved by the outside and also in some parts of the interior. It seems to be hand work, specially the exterior.
Could have this been an exclusive hilt commissioned by an owner wishing to show off an exquisite side arm? Or is this a current model?
Any ideas Gentlemen?

,

Jim McDougall · 4th October 2011, 05:53 AM

This apparant military anomaly is indeed probably an officers sabre which in my opinion may likely be among variations in the Italian states around the mid to third quarter 19th century. These multi branch guards are seen in various configurations on a number of Italian swords of these times, and though Calamendrei ( "Armi Bianchi Militaire Italiene") does not have an exact match, the similarities are compelling. Many of these seem to be from the Piedmont regions in the north, close geographically to influences of bordering European countries.
Interesting on this example is the strong resemblance to British hilts of the period with stepped pommel, backstrap and grips also similar. It seems that a degree of British influence did enter some of the swords, one remarkably of the M1821 cavalry type. It is known that British M1796 light cavalry sabres did come into Italian states during the unification conflicts.

The blade is of a type with midrib at point with a yelman like stepped blade back and seen on Solingen produced forms which were on many Saxony swords into the end of the 19th century (Wagner).

It seems that often in my experience a number of 'inidentifiable' swords which strongly resembled other European swords and seemed 'variant' turned out to be Italian, sort of the 'forgotten' corner of European regulation swords. I think this may plausibly be the case here. As always, looking forward to other views and perhaps even a comparable example with provenance that might tell us more.

fernando · 4th October 2011, 08:53 PM

Much obliged for your input, Jim.
Duly noted

.

fernando · 9th October 2011, 04:05 PM

A new visit to the friend's house ... this time with (brand) new batteries on the camera.

-

BerberDagger · 22nd October 2011, 04:17 AM

in my opinion a nice personalized italian officer sword , the nude type (not personalized ) was used by italian cavalry officer , include officer of Carabinieri . This model was like the good post by Jim used from 1870-1920 .
Italian military swords with british components are not unusual , much mod. 64 have british or german blade ; and others models like mod.33 and 55 olso the guard sometimes.

Matchlock · 22nd October 2011, 04:24 AM

Hi 'Nando,

As this both obviously and sadly is not a 700 to 400 year old item I'm sorry having to quit but I'll pass the link to Ottmar. Let's see what his opinion is.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 22nd October 2011, 03:52 PM

Thasns a lot BeberDagger for your precious input; my friend will be glad to receive such information

.
Thanks Michl for your forwarding the piece to Ottmar for appreciation

.

1st October 2011, 03:32 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Sword for ID This sabre has just been acquired by a friend, together with several other swords, all identifiable, except for this one. The pictures are miserable; my digital camera batteries decided to let me down and i had to use my cell phone camera ( i wasn't at home to fetch spare batteries). This should have been both for sharing with you the rather nice hilt decoration and also ask for the model identification but, all i hope now with these lousy pictures, is the sword ID. The slightly curved blade is the pipe back tipe. The brass hilt, with seven bars, is fully engraved by the outside and also in some parts of the interior. It seems to be hand work, specially the exterior. Could have this been an exclusive hilt commissioned by an owner wishing to show off an exquisite side arm? Or is this a current model? Any ideas Gentlemen? , Attached Images

9th October 2011, 04:05 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A new visit to the friend's house ... this time with (brand) new batteries on the camera. - Attached Images

4th October 2011, 05:53 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	This apparant military anomaly is indeed probably an officers sabre which in my opinion may likely be among variations in the Italian states around the mid to third quarter 19th century. These multi branch guards are seen in various configurations on a number of Italian swords of these times, and though Calamendrei ( "Armi Bianchi Militaire Italiene") does not have an exact match, the similarities are compelling. Many of these seem to be from the Piedmont regions in the north, close geographically to influences of bordering European countries. Interesting on this example is the strong resemblance to British hilts of the period with stepped pommel, backstrap and grips also similar. It seems that a degree of British influence did enter some of the swords, one remarkably of the M1821 cavalry type. It is known that British M1796 light cavalry sabres did come into Italian states during the unification conflicts. The blade is of a type with midrib at point with a yelman like stepped blade back and seen on Solingen produced forms which were on many Saxony swords into the end of the 19th century (Wagner). It seems that often in my experience a number of 'inidentifiable' swords which strongly resembled other European swords and seemed 'variant' turned out to be Italian, sort of the 'forgotten' corner of European regulation swords. I think this may plausibly be the case here. As always, looking forward to other views and perhaps even a comparable example with provenance that might tell us more.

4th October 2011, 08:53 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Much obliged for your input, Jim. Duly noted .

22nd October 2011, 04:17 AM	#5
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	in my opinion a nice personalized italian officer sword , the nude type (not personalized ) was used by italian cavalry officer , include officer of Carabinieri . This model was like the good post by Jim used from 1870-1920 . Italian military swords with british components are not unusual , much mod. 64 have british or german blade ; and others models like mod.33 and 55 olso the guard sometimes.

22nd October 2011, 04:24 AM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando, As this both obviously and sadly is not a 700 to 400 year old item I'm sorry having to quit but I'll pass the link to Ottmar. Let's see what his opinion is. Best, Michael

22nd October 2011, 03:52 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thasns a lot BeberDagger for your precious input; my friend will be glad to receive such information . Thanks Michl for your forwarding the piece to Ottmar for appreciation .