Keris to comment

[ridho pulungan]

Dear Forum

I have this Keris but i dont know the dhapur, the blade look like Singo Kilin,but this keris have two Singo Kilin.
Please give your opinion cause i cant find another picture in the internet similar with this keris.
Thanks.

[kai]

Hello Ridho,

Looks like a double Naga to me (gandhik naga penganten).

I don't think any dhapur can be assigned to this keris: IMHO it does seem to be a Karmadikan blade that doesn't follow any traditional pakem AFAIK.

I hope some of our forumites will contribute similar examples for comparison. I've seen a few (apparently of lesser quality than yours) - can't post any currently for sale though.

BTW, more light will allow you to take better pics! Here is a thread with lots of tips: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10581

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Kai, Kemardikan, no legitimate Surakarta dhapur.

I specify "Surakarta", because that is the only documented one that we have.

[drdavid]

Hello Ridho, I am afraid I cannot add to the comments, but could I suggest photographing your keris with a plain background rather than a patterned one, it makes it easier to pick out the details
regards
Drdavid

[ridho pulungan]

Sorry for bad picture..i will send another picture later..thanks you for all your kind comment..
Regards.

[ridho pulungan]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Ridho,

Looks like a double Naga to me (gandhik naga penganten).

I don't think any dhapur can be assigned to this keris: IMHO it does seem to be a Karmadikan blade that doesn't follow any traditional pakem AFAIK.

I hope some of our forumites will contribute similar examples for comparison. I've seen a few (apparently of lesser quality than yours) - can't post any currently for sale though.

BTW, more light will allow you to take better pics! Here is a thread with lots of tips: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10581

Regards,
Kai

Thank you so much for the link thread Kai. I'll soon post a new picture of this keris.
But Kai,according to what i know (this maybe wrong because my lack of my knowledge) this keris isn't dhapur Naga,because ,the Naga dhapur always crowned by a different crown depend on the naga.
This is several of keris with dhapur Naga from my own collections. Please correct me if i was wrong. I'm just a learner. Be patient with me ok Kai, and Alan..you're my idol. Seriously!
Regards.
Ridho Pulungan

[ridho pulungan]

Hi guys..
Hope this picture can make you more clear about this keris.
Regards.
Ridho Pulungan

[David]

Yes Ridho, these are better photos in that they are not shaky and blurry, but they are a bit too dark to show the details well. I hope you don't mind that i lightened one up for better viewing.

[David]

I think what we can now see shows why you identified this figures as Singo rather than Naga. They have front legs and paws, not a feature generally shown on Naga. They also seem to have manes. Then again the legs seem to have scales.
I believe we have already established this keris as Kemardikan. As such, many of the rules of presentation go out the window. To my eye the creatures represented on this blade are neither Naga or Singo. Perhaps they were created to be a combination of both. This is a nicely crafted and elaborately dressed bit of modern keris art. I don't believe we can hold it to any of the standards of pakem or say for sure exactly what the creatures on the blade are intended to be as they don't seem to fit into any traditional form.

[Bjorn]

Originally Posted by David

I think what we can now see shows why you identified this figures as Singo rather than Naga. They have front legs and paws, not a feature generally shown on Naga. They also seem to have manes. Then again the legs seem to have scales.
I believe we have already established this keris as Kemardikan. As such, many of the rules of presentation go out the window. To my eye the creatures represented on this blade are neither Naga or Singo. Perhaps they were created to be a combination of both. This is a nicely crafted and elaborately dressed bit of modern keris art. I don't believe we can hold it to any of the standards of pakem or say for sure exactly what the creatures on the blade are intended to be as they don't seem to fit into any traditional form.

In his original post, Ridho identified the figures as singo kilin. The kilin part here seems to be key. The kilin/kirin/qilin is a mythological chimera, which I believe has it's origin in East Asia. There are many representations of qilin with scales, which fits with the way the figures on this keris are depicted. In this regard, we could say the depiction fits the traditional form of the qilin, a non-indigenous chimera, rather well.

[Bjorn]

Below some photos of Qilin. The first one is located on the grounds of the Summer Palace in Beijing. The second is is the logo of Japan's Kirin biru. The last one shows a barongsai (lion dance, likely related to the well known Balinese barong as well) in Bogor (West Java).

[ridho pulungan]

Please find the picture below Alan. That the layer of the keris under the magnificiant lens that might be interesting.
Best regards.

[ridho pulungan]

Originally Posted by David

Yes Ridho, these are better photos in that they are not shaky and blurry, but they are a bit too dark to show the details well. I hope you don't mind that i lightened one up for better viewing.

Thank you so much David.

[David]

Originally Posted by Bjorn

In his original post, Ridho identified the figures as singo kilin. The kilin part here seems to be key. The kilin/kirin/qilin is a mythological chimera, which I believe has it's origin in East Asia. There are many representations of qilin with scales, which fits with the way the figures on this keris are depicted. In this regard, we could say the depiction fits the traditional form of the qilin, a non-indigenous chimera, rather well.

While this may or may not be the intention of the maker it is still a mythological creature which is outside the sphere of Javanese iconography, so still a fantasy piece if you will.

[ridho pulungan]

Originally Posted by Bjorn

In his original post, Ridho identified the figures as singo kilin. The kilin part here seems to be key. The kilin/kirin/qilin is a mythological chimera, which I believe has it's origin in East Asia. There are many representations of qilin with scales, which fits with the way the figures on this keris are depicted. In this regard, we could say the depiction fits the traditional form of the qilin, a non-indigenous chimera, rather well.

Hi Bjorn.nice to meet you.
Thank you so much for your comment. Its was reliefing to me. I looking forward for any sugestion or advice from you about this keris or else later.
You guys are Awesome.!.

[Bjorn]

Originally Posted by David

While this may or may not be the intention of the maker it is still a mythological creature which is outside the sphere of Javanese iconography, so still a fantasy piece if you will.

I agree with you to a certain point, David. While the origin of the kilin lies outside of Java, it is a valid cultural symbol for the ethnic Chinese who settled in Indonesia in ages past and their totok and peranakan descendants. So while it is not Javanese iconography pur sang, it is used in Indonesia by Indonesian nationals.

In batik, the qilin is one of the motifs encountered in pieces that are aimed, or created by, ethnic Chinese or peranakan.
Unlike the art of batik, in keris, the qilin hasn't seen use as a traditional motif, as far as I know. Nevertheless, we are looking at a keris kemardikan here, which offers creators the freedom to employ fantasy designs, but also to employ designs that have, and are, used in Indonesia outside of the sphere of keris.
In this regard, I agree that the qilin motif is not a traditional keris design, but I would not go as far as to call it a fantasy design when applied to a keris kemardikan.

[Bjorn]

Originally Posted by ridho pulungan

Hi Bjorn.nice to meet you.
Thank you so much for your comment. Its was reliefing to me. I looking forward for any sugestion or advice from you about this keris or else later.
You guys are Awesome.!.

Hello Ridho, nice to meet you too.
I'm happy I was able to contribute a little to your topic.