A ‚Christian’ Yataghan – Translation help needed :-)

[Tatyana Dianova]

Here is a large and pretty heavy Yataghan from West Anatoly. It has deeply etched pattern welded blade, decorated with silver true inlay and 3D arrows. And it has a fish inlay which looks like a Christian symbol on the top of the handle bolster. It is interesting, what the inscriptions on the blade say. Maybe somebody (Dom :-)?) can help with the translation? I will appreciate any comments :-)

[Tatyana Dianova]

The long inscription (right part)

[Tatyana Dianova]

The long inscription (left part)

[Tatyana Dianova]

Other inscriptions:

[Atlantia]

Hi Tatyana

Its a very attractive sword! The decoration is unusual, and rather interesting. I love the circular patterns. Do you recognise any f the other symbols as Christian? I would have thought that in conjunction with the 'Ichthus' there would be other overt symbols such as the Chi-Rho?
Could the hilt symbol be part of a larger from that has been partly erased?
I've never seen the Christian Fish on a sword before.
I'll be watching the thread with interest to see if anyone can decipher the inscriptions!

Regards
Gene

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
I think this one is a date, Islamic 1214 = 1799/1800. Will be interesting to see what the rest translates as, nice sword. The other one, Alpha?
Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting yataghan!
While awaiting the linguists interpretations of the inscriptions, the symbolism is always of interest to me.
We are of course all well aware of the fish symbolism in Christianity.
This blade is rich in geometric symbolism, and the raised devices on the blade seem to resemble geometric apotropaics somewhat, thinking again of the aghrab on Arabian scabbards, although the design here is not quite the same.

The fish was also symbolically a folk religion talisman in North Africa, from Tunis to the Sudan, and probably much wider, certainly in the Ottoman realm.
The concentric circles resemble ancient motifs in shamanic and folk religion symbolism with wide ranging interpretations, but often seen on rock art and other early artwork.

Naturally it is dangerous to assume whether symbolics in any material culture is applied as deliberate symbolism or whether simply adopted as space filling motif, but it is always interesting to consider the possibilities.

[Battara]

I have also seen this form as not a fish but used in Islamic art as a floral motif, ie. Moro okir.

[Dom]

Hi my Friends ....

where did you got that sword could be Christian
when you'll discovered the owner name, sure he never got a baptem sacrement
more surely, been a good "Hadj" ... LOL

the date also, I am not formal, still yet the risk of error between 2 and 3
as I already explained

the owner name, the title (not an high ranked Gouvernemental employee), and the forma, are very turkish
translation; "Owner Saïd Hussein Effendi"

the long sentence it's again a poem glorifying swords in general and "Zulfikar" in particular (double blade sword)

nice stamp and clear sign for the "blacksmith"
Ali Ben Mohamed

by the way, ... your (!) fish, could looks also the "Nile key"

otherwise, beautiful yatagan

à +

Dom

[Tatyana Dianova]

I would like to thank everybody for the comments and especially Dom for his observations and translations!
Jim, Battara and Dom, I also had my doubts concerning the Christian meaning of the fish, that’s why I’ve written ‘Christian’ in the title. But it is simply the first thought that crosses one’s mind when seeing it. And I thought that maybe the Yataghan belonged to a person, who was a hidden Christian…
Dom, do you think that this level of quality still existed on the turn of 20th century? VERY similar blades one may see in Astvazaturian’s book on Turkish Arms, page 153, and all of them date to the very limited period of 1800-1810…

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Tatyana Dianova

...snip...And I thought that maybe the Yataghan belonged to a person, who was a hidden Christian…
Dom, do you think that this level of quality still existed on the turn of 20th century? VERY similar blades one may see in Astvazaturian’s book on Turkish Arms, page 153, and all of them date to the very limited period of 1800-1810…

Hi Tatyana
I'm not an expert, just an "amateur"
my comments involve ... only myself ... without any warranty
my capacities, are, just to have opportunity of a "charming spouse" fully fluent in arabic, and Islamic culture,
and be myself fascinated for Middle-East and more particularly his weapons and armors

you was expressing the possibility of "an hidden Christian" !!!
when you will know that according with Islam the Muslim relapse is convicted by death (beheaded ..)
only a senseless could take a major risk to show a Christian sign

concerning the date, until 1923 date of disbanded of Othman Empire and the end of XX century,
it was very fanshionnable to be infatuated by "antic's", see Viollet-le-Duc period in France, plenty copies of "Orientalism",
Napoleon the Third ans his wife Eugénie very popular in Egypt, where have been exported the style "N III", who is a "L. XIV" copy ....
even we have Qajar Art ended around 1924, and that Persian production looks oldest than his period, with; armors, helmets, brassards, axes, hammers, mailshirt, etc.
not easy to know with certitude where is the truth, may be there are ... several truthes ...

best regards

à +

Dom

[Tatyana Dianova]

Dom, thank you for the very interesting reply!
It is not very important to me, if this blade is 19 or 20 century, as long as it is beautiful and has a good quality When I ask about the age, I just want to learn more

[ALEX]

Tatyana, the blade is dated as 1214 (not 1314), I think Dom mis-typed it, so it is early 19th century indeed. The 'fish' depiction is fairly common on Islamic objects, especially in silver inlay, so the concept is known. However I have not seen it on the weapons. Would be interesting to know what it stands for in Islamic realm, but I think it would not relate to a Christian concept, just like the 'Star of David' commonly seen on Islamic objects does not represent purely 'Jewish symbol'.

P.S. The standard Islamic cartouche does resemble a stylized fish profile. As Battara mentioned earlier, it is also a floral motif. The one on the yataghan, even without the inner text, could be just that - an 'empty' cartouche i.e. stylized cartouche or floral shape.

[ward]

There are some 16th century swords in Topkapi Palace that have a small fish on the grip, these are gold silver or other metal. I heard that fish were a symbol of potency to the early Turks, so it's probably pre-Islamic but stayed in use. First yataghan I've seen with that motif nice one.
Alex and Battara have a good point too, it could be the outline of a tulip which was big with the Ottomans or a simple form abstracted from a more complex one.

[Zifir]

Hi,

The long inscription is:

Bu bıçağın darbesinden cümle düşman tar ü mar
İntikam alır aduvvdan sanki misli zülfikar


All enemies scatter from the strike of this sword
It takes revenge from enemy as if it is zulfikar (Caliph Ali's sword)

[Dom]

Hi Zifir, salam aleikum

thanks for your help in translation, but PLEASE
if you note any error in our effort of translation
as far as too many time it's turkish weapons are concerned
do not be shy to correct us, at least we will learn some thing
I am talking truely

best regards

à +

Dom

[Tatyana Dianova]

Ward and Alex, great additional info from your side!
Zifir – many thanks for the poem translation! I really like it

[Marc]

Originally Posted by ward

There are some 16th century swords in Topkapi Palace that have a small fish on the grip, these are gold silver or other metal. I heard that fish were a symbol of potency to the early Turks, so it's probably pre-Islamic but stayed in use.

Indeed, there's an article in "GLADIUS" by David Alexander dealing with this symbolism. It can be found HERE

[Zifir]

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Zifir, salam aleikum

thanks for your help in translation, but PLEASE
if you note any error in our effort of translation
as far as too many time it's turkish weapons are concerned
do not be shy to correct us, at least we will learn some thing
I am talking truely

best regards

à +

Dom

Hi Dom,
Majority of yatagans seem to have inscriptions written in simple Ottoman Turkish rather than in more elaborate elite language which included many persian and arabic words. Otherwise they will be easier for you to read. And these are mostly simple ryhmes rather than complex verses of poems. (Good excuse for my amateurish translations

Tatyana you're very welcome.


By the way, I came across an interesting reference today. In a document dated to 1877, the Ottoman government gave an order of 10,000 yatagans for the army, each for 70 gurush (100 gurush = 1 Ottoman lira, 1 Ottoman lira = 1.10 pound sterling). It was interesting to learn that the army was still using yatagans at such a late date.

[Tatyana Dianova]

Marc, thank you very much for the link! It is a great article, which clears a lot. I would like to add a couple of comments on the dragon ornament. The dragons examples from the Alexander’s articles have probably a Chinese origin. I do not mean their manufacture place of course, but their form and meaning (imperial power). Astvatzaturyan (‘Turkish Arms’ book) notes that the Ottoman decorations in 15-16th centuries have a strong Chinese influence. One may often find for example lotus flowers (‘hatayi’) and ‘chinese clouds’ (‘tchi’) on Ottoman textiles, ceramics and arms from this period. There are two very nice early (16th century) yataghan examples (Astvatzaturyan ‘Turkish Arms’, page 134 and Bashir Mohamed ‘The Arts of the Muslim Knight’, page 56) which show clearly these Chinese ornaments, including the dragon. Another ‘hatayi’ and ‘tchi’ examples you may find in the above mentioned Alexander’s article, for example, on page 254.
I have found also very interesting the following Alexander’s comment: ‘The dragon emblem has been wildly misunderstood and transformed into a wavy bifurcated squiggle, yet it retains the impression of a dragon, mouth agape, winding its way towards the blade.’ It clears a bit the snake symbolism on the Islamic blades (maybe!). Even ‘my’ yataghan has snake-like ornaments on the grip bolsters!
Zifir, I think that in Astvatzaturyan (‘Turkish Arms’) you may find the picture of this army yataghan:

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Battara

I have also seen this form as not a fish but used in Islamic art as a floral motif, ie. Moro okir.

Thank you Jose!!

All the best,
Jim