Does cleaning a keris hurt overall value or patina?

dave78 · 12th January 2011, 07:50 AM

I am considering whether or not to clean up my recently acquired keris.

I'm sure many of you are aware of the TV program "Antiques Road Show",

and they always say don't clean or refinish old pieces because it will

greatly reduce the value and patina of a piece. This advice is most

often geared towards metal objects (guns, knives etc.) and wooden objects

such as furniture. Are there any major do's and dont's in this regard?

I've also noticed that people regularly switch parts around such as the

hilt. Isn't it better to keep the piece in original condition?

Henk · 12th January 2011, 04:16 PM

Yes Dave, of course it is better to keep the piece in original condition. That's for all antique items and certainly for weapons. Every authority on antique says so. But keris is a bit different. To keep the blade in its good condition the blade should be cleaned from time to time. If the blade is in good condition preserve it by oiling otherwise it should be stained with warangan. There is enough to read about it on the forum.

For the dress you should realise that in the malay climate especially the wooden parts disapear under your hands. So it is well known that the wooden parts of a keris where changed regularly. Mostly the dress of a keris is much younger than the keris itself. Besides that it was custom if you had the possability to upgrade your keris or to reward the keris, you changed the dress in a more fancier and more expensive dress.

But for us collectors, we try to preserve the original dress of the keris as good as possible and when the blade is rusty we try to give it a proper stain.

Read the threads on the forum and you will find out.

Best, Henk

David · 12th January 2011, 05:08 PM

I think Henk and i are pretty much in agreement, but i will throw down my 2 cents on the matter anyway...

It is part of the culture of the keris to regularly clean and re-stain the blades (though staining is not a common tradition on the Peninsula as i understand it). It is a way of doing honor to the blade and to maintain the spirit and ancestral energy which is supposedly held within.
Also, as Henk already pointed out, dress was routinely changed as wooded parts wore out or social status was upgraded. Of course this is all as seen from the perspective from within the culture.
Now many of us are collectors of keris from outside the culture. Still, i see nothing wrong with attempting to maintain my keris from a somewhat indigenous perspective. So if i receive a keris that is in a bad state of condition i may well choose to renovate that keris to bring it up to respectable and "original" shape. I would therefore clean the blade with pineapple juice and stain it with warangan (a mixture of lime and arsenic) to revitalize the blade. If the dress is particularly damaged i may attempt to repair it as best i can.
Sometimes you will find a keris that is already a mishmosh of various styles that has been assembled by some dealer somewhere just for the sake of sale. Under those circumstances i might choose to replace a hilt or other part to return the keris to what i perceive a a more correct cultural dress for that particular keris.
What i do not generally choose to do, however, is to upgrade the dress of my keris just for the sake of presenting a prettier ensemble. Some collector do this, but i find it counter to my own intentions of collection. I like to collect keris with a "history" and much prefer to find a keris that is as close to "original" condition as possible.
But if you are wondering whether cleaning the blade of your keris will hurt the value of that keris i would have to say no, it would not, unless of course you did some kind of irreversible damage to the blade. If you do a search on this forum for keris cleaning you should come up with some fairly clear instructions on how to safely clean your blade and prevent further rusting. Staining with warangan is a bit trickier and you might want to leave that to a professional or not stain it at all, but nobody likes a rusty keris blade so i would recommend that if there is active rust on your blade you take care of it and then oil the blade regularly.

Sajen · 12th January 2011, 09:09 PM

Hello Dave,

in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11844 I show the restoration of one keris from my collection and you will find there a discussion about restoration in general as well.

Regards,

Detlef

dave78 · 13th January 2011, 03:35 AM

It is with great care and consideration, and after reading all the

responses, that I have decided to clean the blade only and let the rest

of it grow old gracefully. I like to think of the slight dirt on the

hilt, which has a greyish appearance, not as mere dirt but as grey hair

on a well traveled, old wise man, which (in my opinion) helps gives the

piece character.

My belief is that the time and diligence put into this will serve to

honour the original maker and spirits, as well as my grandfather from

whom I inherited it, and my hope is that they would approve of my

decision.

Once again, thank you all for your thoughtful and meaningful comments,

and expertise.

Henk · 13th January 2011, 05:32 PM

Dave,

I think you should clean the dress of your keris so that the grey layer disappears. You certainly will not honour the maker and spirits by neglecting the house of the keris. If i come home i don't feel comfortable when the house is dirty with everwhere layers of dust. The spirits of the keris and the maker will think the same way.
Your grandfather? I don't know. If the dirt on the keris reminds you of your grandfather and i mean the fact that his hands touched that surface and you want to preserve that memory, fine.
But if you want to do justice to the keris, clean it!!

David · 13th January 2011, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Dave,

I think you should clean the dress of your keris so that the grey layer disappears. You certainly will not honour the maker and spirits by neglecting the house of the keris. If i come home i don't feel comfortable when the house is dirty with everwhere layers of dust. The spirits of the keris and the maker will think the same way.
Your grandfather? I don't know. If the dirt on the keris reminds you of your grandfather and i mean the fact that his hands touched that surface and you want to preserve that memory, fine.
But if you want to do justice to the keris, clean it!!

I do have to agree here. Dirt is not patina and cleaning the dirt from the dress will not destroy the patina, only enhance it.
Personally i would use some wood oil to clean it up and keep the wood from drying out. This will help preserve the dress and prevent further cracking. I also use a bit of Butcher's Wax as a protection for the surface afterwards. Gives the wood a nice low luster look as well.

Sajen · 13th January 2011, 05:57 PM

Hello Dave,

agree with Henk and David. Do you have read the thread which I have given you by link in up? Real patina you can't clean!!

Regards,

Detlef

dave78 · 14th January 2011, 08:29 AM

Well since you all agree, and, as was pointed out, because of the cultural differences, the "rules" regarding refinishing are also different as they are here in the west. I'll use all your valuable tips and clean and preserve the whole keris. This may take awhile, but I'll post pictures when I'm done.

Thanks again for all the expert advice.

David · 14th January 2011, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave78

Well since you all agree, and, as was pointed out, because of the cultural differences, the "rules" regarding refinishing are also different as they are here in the west.

Just to be clear Dave, "cleaning" and "refinishing" are not the same thing. I am less inclined to encourage anyone to "refinish" their keris dress. That would involve sanding, staining and the application of new finish to the wood. It would involve the removal of old patina. Cleaning and oiling/waxing the wood is far less invasive and preserves both the patina and the wood itself.

Mytribalworld · 14th January 2011, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Dave,

agree with Henk and David. Do you have read the thread which I have given you by link in up? Real patina you can't clean!!

Regards,

Detlef

real patina you can't clean ? AAHummm?

may I give an example ? our national museum "Bronbeek" where I once visited the depots where the curator showed me a big part of the collection that was cleaned once where very old swords has turned in completely new looking stuff without patina because of the "cleaning" activety of former curators.

It suprised me a little that members give advise to "clean" while they haven't seen the keris yet....

don't unterstand me wrong, dirt is dirt and as David mentioned oil cleaning is ok, but be very carefull with other stuff like the mentioned 0000 steelwool.

first look,than think, ( than sleep a night) than think again, that act.

untouched kerisses are getting so enourmous scarce.....

Arjan

David · 14th January 2011, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

real patina you can't clean ? AAHummm?

may I give an example ? our national museum "Bronbeek" where I once visited the depots where the curator showed me a big part of the collection that was cleaned once where very old swords has turned in completely new looking stuff without patina because of the "cleaning" activety of former curators.

It suprised me a little that members give advise to "clean" while they haven't seen the keris yet....

don't unterstand me wrong, dirt is dirt and as David mentioned oil cleaning is ok, but be very carefull with other stuff like the mentioned 0000 steelwool.

first look,than think, ( than sleep a night) than think again, that act.

untouched kerisses are getting so enourmous scarce.....

Arjan

Arjan, of course overly aggressive cleaning can eliminate patina. We must be careful and thoughtful. However i would never encourage someone to leave active rust on a keris blade nor dirt on the blade or dress as these are not patina and can be removed without damaging patina. Of course keris blades for the most part are intended to be maintained and stained to bring out their pamor patterns so i don't think that you can apply the rules of care for, say a mandau to that of a keris. It's apples and oranges really.
As for not having seen the blade yet, this is not so. We all had a chance to look and comment on Dave's new acquisition in this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13136
And it is really difficult to do much damage with 0000 steel wool. It will not leave scratches on your blade no matter how hard you try, though i suppose that with some effort it might remove the patina from wood.

Sajen · 14th January 2011, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

real patina you can't clean ? AAHummm?

It suprised me a little that members give advise to "clean" while they haven't seen the keris yet....

don't unterstand me wrong, dirt is dirt and as David mentioned oil cleaning is ok, but be very carefull with other stuff like the mentioned 0000 steelwool.

first look,than think, ( than sleep a night) than think again, that act.

untouched kerisses are getting so enourmous scarce.....

Arjan

Hi Arjan,

the same advice i can give to you: First read, than think and when you need think again before attack someone!

In this case please read the post #44 in this link again:http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11844

The same advice to read all in this thread i have given to Dave. There you can see that I not general clean all keris and that everybody have take his own desicion how to conserve his keris!

BTW, when you look at the keris (the link have given David) you will see that the sarung of the keris haven't a patina like you may think and a careful polish of the wood (this advice I have given there already) will bring out a better appearance, by this I am sure.

Regards,

Detlef

Maurice · 14th January 2011, 08:46 PM

It wasn't clear for me also, this because I didn't see the thread with images of the keris mentioned.
So I think next time it would be better to place the images of the keris in the thread about the cleaning. Or at least put the link of the other thread in it.

I myself likes the patina on old pieces. Keris or no kerisses. And in my early collection days I did too excessive cleaning, and it was the biggest mistake of my life.
Nowadays when I have a very old piece in hands, but it looks like new because of excessive cleaning by others, all the fun and pleasure suddenly disappears, and even worst, I just dislike the piece because of the "new" appearance.

In fact it is worse. If I have a very old 19th century piece with a lot of patina, and there is a chip of wood somewhere broken which happened recently because of lack of care of former owners, and there is no old patina therefore on the breakoff, it would be hard to keep it in my own collection! But that is just my vision which I need my collectionpieces to meet...

I also don't like dirt on the piece. So the question is, how far are you going with cleaning? Before you know you go to far and some of the patina left.
So if you don't have much experience with it, I would keep it the way it is.

Personally I also think this will be an endless discussion which will come back again and again.

So what is the right thing to do? There are some who would "honour" the keris by treating it the way it was done in the early days. And I respect that fully.
But I am supporting Arjan's vision on this (not because he is Dutch, cause there are a lot of Dutch keris collectors who share your opinion of cleaning)..

Best wishes,
Maurice

Mytribalworld · 14th January 2011, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Arjan,

the same advice i can give to you: First read, than think and when you need think again before attack someone!

In this case please read the post #44 in this link again:http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11844

The same advice to read all in this thread i have given to Dave. There you can see that I not general clean all keris and that everybody have take his own desicion how to conserve his keris!

BTW, when you look at the keris (the link have given David) you will see that the sarung of the keris haven't a patina like you may think and a careful polish of the wood (this advice I have given there already) will bring out a better appearance, by this I am sure.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,

it was certainly not mentioned as "attack" so sorry, if it felt like that.
what I only "attacked" was the statement "you can't clean real patina" but this is already answered by David.

indeed I didn't looked on the other thread as I not often visit the keris threads but was "alarmed" by the subject of this thread "

Does cleaning a keris hurt overall value or patina? what is a general question and what is not as easy to answer.

what is just cleaning for one can be polishing and scrubbing for the other
cleaning and cleaning seems to be two as we are all different.

As owner of the object every collector is of course free to do with his objects to do what he wants.As collector/dealer but also restorer, I see the treasurebox of quality weaponery shrinking with the years.
One of the reasons for that shrinking is that the parts are cleaned,exchanged or "repaired" without knowledge. I have see superb scarce bali kerisses looking suddenly different when the handle was exhanged by a fake one ! when I asked about this misbehavior the answer was " well that's normal like we do in keris country"
misglued cracks with superglue,bisonkit etc impossible to restore without breaking/damaging again.
Lately a visit from a customer who had "just cleaned a little" the object I wished I never had sold him.

Of course I know that members of this forum would never do so, but gladly I have taked the oportunity to encourage to be carefull,very carefull.
Only than we can enjoy our stuff and keep collecting also in the future and I hope my son ( now 5 months) also when he is grown up.

regards,

Arjan

Sajen · 15th January 2011, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

Hi Detlef,

it was certainly not mentioned as "attack" so sorry, if it felt like that.
what I only "attacked" was the statement "you can't clean real patina" but this is already answered by David.

indeed I didn't looked on the other thread as I not often visit the keris threads but was "alarmed" by the subject of this thread "

Arjan,

of course i have felt under attack when you have given me the advice that i have to look, than think, and so on. And special with the background that i have had the feeling that you byself haven't read all carefully and you don't know which keris is the one about we write here.

I am not resentful and naturally take your "Sorry".

Keep in mind that I have a great understanding of the respect you have for patina and that i have had many times an internal battle in my mind to "clean" a sarung of a keris (look post #44 in the other thread) and sometimes i have decided to keep the patination (look the picture) but in case of the keris in question i am sure that it only can look better when the sarung is cleaned. And when Dave decide to clean it and will post pictures of the result i am sure that you will agree.

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 15th January 2011, 04:01 AM

This is an opinion, and it is not to be construed as advice.

The question originally put in this thread incorporated the concept of "value".

Value in this context I interpret as meaning:-

" can I get more for this thing if I clean it, or if I don't clean it, and if I clean it, how much should I clean it to maximise value to a potential buyer?"

The answer to these questions lays in the nature of the market into which the object will be sold, and to a finer degree, the needs of the identified buyers.

If the market prefers the idea of antiquity and associates that with a modicum of dirt and obvious age, then that is what the canny seller will provide, be it genuine or not.

If the market prefers that a traditional object should be presented in as close a form to possible as that which is regarded as correct in the society from which the object originates, then the canny seller will do his best to provide that societally correct presentation.

However, if we adopt the point of view of a collector, or student, of the same object, then my personal feeling is that whatever makes the individual happy is correct.

Forget market value and simply do what makes you feel good.

If that means leaving as found, leave it as found.

If it means a total restoration, do that, with the caution that you find out how to do this properly before you pick up the angle grinder.

If it means adopting some approach that falls between these two extremes, that's what you do. When all is said and done, only one person needs to live with the object:- you.

dave78 · 15th January 2011, 12:35 PM

There are so many different opinions here now, I'm not really sure what to do. One of the things I like most about my keris is that it looks its age (at least 60 years old). I think what I'm most concerned about is, if I do clean it, it will lose the appeal that only comes with natural age. I'm going to have to think this through again. Here's the pictures again if anyone is still interested:

David · 15th January 2011, 03:45 PM

This is, of course, very good advice Alan, some i would support. Ultimately it is always the owner who must make themselves happy.
However, if we get back to the specific question that Dave posted, that would be "Does cleaning a keris hurt overall value or patina?" I do understand your reference to different markets quite well, but i would have to say that from what i have understood from the attitudes of the keris community in general (if we can ever generalize such a thing) is that as long as you don't also clean away patina or damage or over clean the blade in the process the answer is no, it will not hurt the value. And i believe whole-heartedly that a careful and well thought out cleaning does not hurt patina, but can in fact enhance it, so i find this part of Dave's question less subjective than the part about value. Frankly i'm not sure what the antique community at large thinks of this or, for that matter, what the appraisers at the Antiques Road Show would say about it all, but for me personally that is not the market that matters much in making these decisions.
Ultimate Dave is, of course, welcome to leave his keris "as is", but he did come to us and ask our opinions and he has most certainly received some.

David · 17th January 2011, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave78

There are so many different opinions here now, I'm not really sure what to do. One of the things I like most about my keris is that it looks its age (at least 60 years old). I think what I'm most concerned about is, if I do clean it, it will lose the appeal that only comes with natural age. I'm going to have to think this through again. Here's the pictures again if anyone is still interested:

I don't think that the opinions here are as diverse as they might appear. No one would suggest that you aggressively refinish this keris. There are degrees of cleaning. IMO removing dirt and oiling the wood of your sheath and hilt is not going to make your keris look any less aged. Likewise removing dirt and rust from your blade and oiling it will not make it look less old, just less rusty. And active rust is a destructive force and will over time eat into the metal of your blade cause irreparable damage to the blade.
All this work can easily be done without any loss to patina.

A. G. Maisey · 17th January 2011, 03:29 AM

David, as I said at the beginning of my post, I was giving an opinion, not providing advice.

If I were to provide advice, it would be more or less in line with the advice that has already been given:-

glue the scabbard together, use a good furniture oil to to clean it, I prefer Sheraton, then a good furniture wax, clean the hilt the same way, lightly clean the pendongkok, do a complete clean and stain of the blade.

If it were mine, that's what I'd do with it, and for a segment of the keris market this would also maximise value.

However, the keris market has a number of segments, and they do not all have the same requirements.

Similarly not all people who have keris in their possession have the same tastes, nor the same level of knowledge.

The objective of my initial post was to encourage dave78 to slow down, think about what had already been said, and decide if he wants to learn a little more about keris or if he simply wants to preserve a little bit of family memorabilia.

David · 17th January 2011, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The objective of my initial post was to encourage dave78 to slow down, think about what had already been said, and decide if he wants to learn a little more about keris or if he simply wants to preserve a little bit of family memorabilia.

Well exactly Alan. I have already acknowledged that there are different markets. That is why i have only suggested to Dave that he carefully clean his keris and rid it of active rust. I have a hard time seeing how those actions would have an adverse effect on any market.
I have not recommended staining or even re-gluing the sheath, two things that i would probably do with this keris were it in my hands.

A. G. Maisey · 18th January 2011, 02:52 AM

David, when I mentioned market segments, I was thinking in terms of all those people who do buy keris, not necessarily keris collectors.

With keris collectors, and simply weapons collectors who buy the occasional keris, there is mostly an acceptance that some maintenance work on things is not only acceptable, but necessary. Some of these people may prefer complete restorations, others may want graduations of that, still others will only touch a piece if it has been removed from place of origin a long time ago and recently discovered in the bottom of granddad's sea chest.

However, when we consider the preferences of tribal art collectors, most especially the really hard core of this segment, the demand for absolutely no interference with "as found" condition can go to extreme lengths.

David · 18th January 2011, 03:29 AM

Understood and agreed Alan. However, i could be wrong, but i don't think Dave has made his enquiry here because he is planning on selling his new inheritance. I think he just doesn't want to do the "wrong" thing. Of course "right" and "wrong" here is rather subjective. These various markets must be quite a confusion to him. In the end i think it comes back to something you said earlier, "forget the market value and simply do what makes you feel good".

A. G. Maisey · 18th January 2011, 03:53 AM

Yeah, you're probably right David, however, when a question is phrased in terms of "value", it can generate answers other than those sought.

Again yes, I do really believe that we should all treat our collections in the way that best suits us. Sure, there is some sort of responsibility towards following generations, and when we develop a cultural conscience it does become obvious that we need to preserve the past, but on the other hand,each of us needs to live with what have.

I think my encouragement to act according to our own desires stops a bit short of grabbing the can of gold spray paint --- and as for Araldite, well, I reckon it should only be sold on licence.

12th January 2011, 07:50 AM	#1
dave78 Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 6	Does cleaning a keris hurt overall value or patina? I am considering whether or not to clean up my recently acquired keris. I'm sure many of you are aware of the TV program "Antiques Road Show", and they always say don't clean or refinish old pieces because it will greatly reduce the value and patina of a piece. This advice is most often geared towards metal objects (guns, knives etc.) and wooden objects such as furniture. Are there any major do's and dont's in this regard? I've also noticed that people regularly switch parts around such as the hilt. Isn't it better to keep the piece in original condition?

15th January 2011, 12:35 PM	#18
dave78 Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 6	There are so many different opinions here now, I'm not really sure what to do. One of the things I like most about my keris is that it looks its age (at least 60 years old). I think what I'm most concerned about is, if I do clean it, it will lose the appeal that only comes with natural age. I'm going to have to think this through again. Here's the pictures again if anyone is still interested: Attached Images

12th January 2011, 04:16 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Yes Dave, of course it is better to keep the piece in original condition. That's for all antique items and certainly for weapons. Every authority on antique says so. But keris is a bit different. To keep the blade in its good condition the blade should be cleaned from time to time. If the blade is in good condition preserve it by oiling otherwise it should be stained with warangan. There is enough to read about it on the forum. For the dress you should realise that in the malay climate especially the wooden parts disapear under your hands. So it is well known that the wooden parts of a keris where changed regularly. Mostly the dress of a keris is much younger than the keris itself. Besides that it was custom if you had the possability to upgrade your keris or to reward the keris, you changed the dress in a more fancier and more expensive dress. But for us collectors, we try to preserve the original dress of the keris as good as possible and when the blade is rusty we try to give it a proper stain. Read the threads on the forum and you will find out. Best, Henk

12th January 2011, 05:08 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	I think Henk and i are pretty much in agreement, but i will throw down my 2 cents on the matter anyway... It is part of the culture of the keris to regularly clean and re-stain the blades (though staining is not a common tradition on the Peninsula as i understand it). It is a way of doing honor to the blade and to maintain the spirit and ancestral energy which is supposedly held within. Also, as Henk already pointed out, dress was routinely changed as wooded parts wore out or social status was upgraded. Of course this is all as seen from the perspective from within the culture. Now many of us are collectors of keris from outside the culture. Still, i see nothing wrong with attempting to maintain my keris from a somewhat indigenous perspective. So if i receive a keris that is in a bad state of condition i may well choose to renovate that keris to bring it up to respectable and "original" shape. I would therefore clean the blade with pineapple juice and stain it with warangan (a mixture of lime and arsenic) to revitalize the blade. If the dress is particularly damaged i may attempt to repair it as best i can. Sometimes you will find a keris that is already a mishmosh of various styles that has been assembled by some dealer somewhere just for the sake of sale. Under those circumstances i might choose to replace a hilt or other part to return the keris to what i perceive a a more correct cultural dress for that particular keris. What i do not generally choose to do, however, is to upgrade the dress of my keris just for the sake of presenting a prettier ensemble. Some collector do this, but i find it counter to my own intentions of collection. I like to collect keris with a "history" and much prefer to find a keris that is as close to "original" condition as possible. But if you are wondering whether cleaning the blade of your keris will hurt the value of that keris i would have to say no, it would not, unless of course you did some kind of irreversible damage to the blade. If you do a search on this forum for keris cleaning you should come up with some fairly clear instructions on how to safely clean your blade and prevent further rusting. Staining with warangan is a bit trickier and you might want to leave that to a professional or not stain it at all, but nobody likes a rusty keris blade so i would recommend that if there is active rust on your blade you take care of it and then oil the blade regularly.

12th January 2011, 09:09 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Hello Dave, in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11844 I show the restoration of one keris from my collection and you will find there a discussion about restoration in general as well. Regards, Detlef

13th January 2011, 03:35 AM	#5
dave78 Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 6	It is with great care and consideration, and after reading all the responses, that I have decided to clean the blade only and let the rest of it grow old gracefully. I like to think of the slight dirt on the hilt, which has a greyish appearance, not as mere dirt but as grey hair on a well traveled, old wise man, which (in my opinion) helps gives the piece character. My belief is that the time and diligence put into this will serve to honour the original maker and spirits, as well as my grandfather from whom I inherited it, and my hope is that they would approve of my decision. Once again, thank you all for your thoughtful and meaningful comments, and expertise.

13th January 2011, 05:32 PM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Dave, I think you should clean the dress of your keris so that the grey layer disappears. You certainly will not honour the maker and spirits by neglecting the house of the keris. If i come home i don't feel comfortable when the house is dirty with everwhere layers of dust. The spirits of the keris and the maker will think the same way. Your grandfather? I don't know. If the dirt on the keris reminds you of your grandfather and i mean the fact that his hands touched that surface and you want to preserve that memory, fine. But if you want to do justice to the keris, clean it!!

13th January 2011, 05:57 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Hello Dave, agree with Henk and David. Do you have read the thread which I have given you by link in up? Real patina you can't clean!! Regards, Detlef

14th January 2011, 08:29 AM	#9
dave78 Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 6	Well since you all agree, and, as was pointed out, because of the cultural differences, the "rules" regarding refinishing are also different as they are here in the west. I'll use all your valuable tips and clean and preserve the whole keris. This may take awhile, but I'll post pictures when I'm done. Thanks again for all the expert advice.

14th January 2011, 08:46 PM	#14
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,346	It wasn't clear for me also, this because I didn't see the thread with images of the keris mentioned. So I think next time it would be better to place the images of the keris in the thread about the cleaning. Or at least put the link of the other thread in it. I myself likes the patina on old pieces. Keris or no kerisses. And in my early collection days I did too excessive cleaning, and it was the biggest mistake of my life. Nowadays when I have a very old piece in hands, but it looks like new because of excessive cleaning by others, all the fun and pleasure suddenly disappears, and even worst, I just dislike the piece because of the "new" appearance. In fact it is worse. If I have a very old 19th century piece with a lot of patina, and there is a chip of wood somewhere broken which happened recently because of lack of care of former owners, and there is no old patina therefore on the breakoff, it would be hard to keep it in my own collection! But that is just my vision which I need my collectionpieces to meet... I also don't like dirt on the piece. So the question is, how far are you going with cleaning? Before you know you go to far and some of the patina left. So if you don't have much experience with it, I would keep it the way it is. Personally I also think this will be an endless discussion which will come back again and again. So what is the right thing to do? There are some who would "honour" the keris by treating it the way it was done in the early days. And I respect that fully. But I am supporting Arjan's vision on this (not because he is Dutch, cause there are a lot of Dutch keris collectors who share your opinion of cleaning).. Best wishes, Maurice

15th January 2011, 04:01 AM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	This is an opinion, and it is not to be construed as advice. The question originally put in this thread incorporated the concept of "value". Value in this context I interpret as meaning:- " can I get more for this thing if I clean it, or if I don't clean it, and if I clean it, how much should I clean it to maximise value to a potential buyer?" The answer to these questions lays in the nature of the market into which the object will be sold, and to a finer degree, the needs of the identified buyers. If the market prefers the idea of antiquity and associates that with a modicum of dirt and obvious age, then that is what the canny seller will provide, be it genuine or not. If the market prefers that a traditional object should be presented in as close a form to possible as that which is regarded as correct in the society from which the object originates, then the canny seller will do his best to provide that societally correct presentation. However, if we adopt the point of view of a collector, or student, of the same object, then my personal feeling is that whatever makes the individual happy is correct. Forget market value and simply do what makes you feel good. If that means leaving as found, leave it as found. If it means a total restoration, do that, with the caution that you find out how to do this properly before you pick up the angle grinder. If it means adopting some approach that falls between these two extremes, that's what you do. When all is said and done, only one person needs to live with the object:- you.

15th January 2011, 03:45 PM	#19
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	This is, of course, very good advice Alan, some i would support. Ultimately it is always the owner who must make themselves happy. However, if we get back to the specific question that Dave posted, that would be "Does cleaning a keris hurt overall value or patina?" I do understand your reference to different markets quite well, but i would have to say that from what i have understood from the attitudes of the keris community in general (if we can ever generalize such a thing) is that as long as you don't also clean away patina or damage or over clean the blade in the process the answer is no, it will not hurt the value. And i believe whole-heartedly that a careful and well thought out cleaning does not hurt patina, but can in fact enhance it, so i find this part of Dave's question less subjective than the part about value. Frankly i'm not sure what the antique community at large thinks of this or, for that matter, what the appraisers at the Antiques Road Show would say about it all, but for me personally that is not the market that matters much in making these decisions. Ultimate Dave is, of course, welcome to leave his keris "as is", but he did come to us and ask our opinions and he has most certainly received some.

17th January 2011, 03:29 AM	#21
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	David, as I said at the beginning of my post, I was giving an opinion, not providing advice. If I were to provide advice, it would be more or less in line with the advice that has already been given:- glue the scabbard together, use a good furniture oil to to clean it, I prefer Sheraton, then a good furniture wax, clean the hilt the same way, lightly clean the pendongkok, do a complete clean and stain of the blade. If it were mine, that's what I'd do with it, and for a segment of the keris market this would also maximise value. However, the keris market has a number of segments, and they do not all have the same requirements. Similarly not all people who have keris in their possession have the same tastes, nor the same level of knowledge. The objective of my initial post was to encourage dave78 to slow down, think about what had already been said, and decide if he wants to learn a little more about keris or if he simply wants to preserve a little bit of family memorabilia.

18th January 2011, 02:52 AM	#23
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	David, when I mentioned market segments, I was thinking in terms of all those people who do buy keris, not necessarily keris collectors. With keris collectors, and simply weapons collectors who buy the occasional keris, there is mostly an acceptance that some maintenance work on things is not only acceptable, but necessary. Some of these people may prefer complete restorations, others may want graduations of that, still others will only touch a piece if it has been removed from place of origin a long time ago and recently discovered in the bottom of granddad's sea chest. However, when we consider the preferences of tribal art collectors, most especially the really hard core of this segment, the demand for absolutely no interference with "as found" condition can go to extreme lengths.

18th January 2011, 03:29 AM	#24
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	Understood and agreed Alan. However, i could be wrong, but i don't think Dave has made his enquiry here because he is planning on selling his new inheritance. I think he just doesn't want to do the "wrong" thing. Of course "right" and "wrong" here is rather subjective. These various markets must be quite a confusion to him. In the end i think it comes back to something you said earlier, "forget the market value and simply do what makes you feel good".

18th January 2011, 03:53 AM	#25
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	Yeah, you're probably right David, however, when a question is phrased in terms of "value", it can generate answers other than those sought. Again yes, I do really believe that we should all treat our collections in the way that best suits us. Sure, there is some sort of responsibility towards following generations, and when we develop a cultural conscience it does become obvious that we need to preserve the past, but on the other hand,each of us needs to live with what have. I think my encouragement to act according to our own desires stops a bit short of grabbing the can of gold spray paint --- and as for Araldite, well, I reckon it should only be sold on licence.