Help with Translation

[harrywagner]

This is a Saudi presentation sword that I believe was made between 1950 and 1970 (the 1928 "sovereign" can be safely ignored). That is just a guess that I base on the quality of the sword. I've handled enough of these now to understand that, generally speaking, the older they are the better their quality. This is a heavy, solid, well made sword that I am happy to have in my collection. I could use some help though with the Arabic text running the length of the blade. TIA!

Harry

[harrywagner]

I just now realized that I forgot to post a photo of the entire sword. Attached. Thanks.

[harrywagner]

One more photo showing the entire text.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams harrywagner This one expands the theory of this sword representing the defence of Arabia and the Gulf. It is technically talismanic ...all arabic script is. This one is more in line with a presentation sword (as you point out) and is less likely to invoke something awful happening to anyone coming into contact with it...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams harrywagner This one expands the theory of this sword representing the defence of Arabia and the Gulf. It is technically talismanic ...all arabic script is. This one is more in line with a presentation sword (as you point out) and is less likely to invoke something awful happening to anyone coming into contact with it...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Can you explain how all Arabic script is talismanic?

Interesting piece, while its very present in the peninsula through out the 70's and 80's it is actually made in Syria for decoration. Sometimes it makes its way into collections by being gifted around as a cheaper and easier to find alternative to the ones made in the gulf (or the older, finer bladed Syrian examples)

The form does not follow any traditional form, the all filigree mounts are not present in historic arms in the gulf or Syria.. but it looks nice. And now who ever made them in Syria is not making them again.

The hilt form copies the Ottoman populous design.

Translation:

"The sword is glory that you hold,
Glory is not attained by weakness.

And in swords is the defence of Arabs,
And with swords the defence of Arabs and the homeland."

the poem is what you expect from a time period in which Pan-Arabism was still going strong and it makes some critical errors in the Arab language.

A good example for what it is, and these are getting more rare with time. But not exactly a real sword.

Edit: I forgot to comment about the Saudi emblem. The Syrian makers offer custom jobs to their target markets. There are examples around with the Kuwaiti emblem as well :-))

[harrywagner]

Thank you for the translation! I agree completely that these are meant for display only. I am surprised by how much their quality varies. This is the nicest one I have handled and is good enough quality that I plan to keep and display it. I always figured they were made in Riyad. Thanks for correcting me. I tried to buy one almost exactly like this one about two years ago and was outbid. It may have been this one. The seller's story was that it was given to a Shell Oil engineer by SA in the 1950s. If it is the same knife the story did not transfer with this sale.

One more question: the scabbard locket is stamped with a '90' just above the SA emblem and where it is not seen when the sword in sheathed. Does anyone know what that might mean? Thanks again. Much appreciated.

Best regards,
Harry

[A.alnakkas]

can I see the stamp?

There is still s good quantity of these for sale here in gift shops and some 'antique' shops. Some do come with better quality.

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

can I see the stamp?

There is still s good quantity of these for sale here in gift shops and some 'antique' shops. Some do come with better quality.

Here is the stamp. Thanks again!

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Here is the stamp. Thanks again!

Could be anything. But I lean towards inventory number or type number?

[harrywagner]

That's it? Really? Holy smokes, this group must be mellowing. I thought for sure the sight of a presentation item (even a nice one like this) woudl induce projectile vomiting with the more traditional collectors. I am glad everyone survived it.

Thanks again for the translation. I am a little surprised by what it says. It is a veiled threat, right?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[QUOTE=A.alnakkas]Can you explain how all Arabic script is talismanic?


Salaams ... I think Forum would agree that since we are dealing with Ethnographic arms (usually) that the vast majority of script we see is directly attributed to Quranic reference. I therefor add that what I refer to as Arabic encompasses those references i.e. religious talismanic script.

I think your question is more directed at what is a Talisman ? which would be more informative to Forum rather than to get involved in a deeply religious diatribe thus I include the following notes which could help...

From http://metmuseum.org/toah/hd/tali/hd_tali.htm

Quote" A talisman is any object that is imbued with protective powers, and all cultures have manifestations of such objects. In the world of Islam, they bear Qur’anic inscriptions as well as images of prophets, astrological signs, and religious narratives. Many Muslims believe that an object that is inscribed with the word God (Allah) will protect the person who reads, touches, or sees it and that the word of God has the power to ward off evil. The surface of a talismanic object can be covered with prayers, signs, numbers, and decorative motifs, and the object is carried in a pocket, or rolled and placed in an amulet case; some talismans are worn as clothing (1978.546.32; 04.3.458; 1998.199).

The most efficacious talismans are those that are inscribed with prayers that evoke the name of God and the Prophet Muhammad and his companions. The ninety-nine names of God, verses from the Qur’an, and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (hadith), for example, are appropriated and regenerated into texts that are meant to be good omens. Talismans that contain inscriptions with the names of prophets and religious figures (1984.504.2; 2003.241) have the power to protect an individual from hardship and danger by acting as conduits between these holy figures and anyone carrying the talisman. This is also true of devotional manuals by religious leaders (shaikhs) with passages stating that whoever reads them will be protected from demons and supernatural beings (jinn) (1975.192.1). The written story about a prophet can be protective as well, with pictorial representations of that prophet and of the omens associated with him (35.64.3).

The representations of certain prophets are more efficacious than others, with Solomon’s as the most powerful of all. Solomon had the ability to talk to animals and supernatural beings (jinn), and was renowned for his wisdom; Bilqis, Queen of Sheba, was converted to monotheism by witnessing that wisdom (1979.518.1). The Qur’an states Solomon’s authority in a number of verses (Qur’anic verse 27:17) (36.25.1297; 12.224.6), and his apotropaic seal, a six-pointed star or hexagram, occurs on many surfaces, such as a wood panel (33.41.1a–e), a blade (36.25.1293), and a scroll (1978.546.32).

Many other religious narratives also carry talismanic powers. The story of the miracle of the seven sleepers of Ephesus (ashab al-kahf, or “people of the cave”) (35.64.3; 2003.241), which is the subject of a chapter in the Qur’an (Surat al-Kahf), has particular powers for many Muslims. The act of reciting the story of the seven Christian men and their dog Qitmir who, fleeing persecution by the emperor Decius (r. 249–51 A.D.), found a cave and slept for several hundred years, protects the reader from harm, just as the seven sleepers and their dog were protected all those years.

Images of the Prophet Muhammad’s cousin ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib (1976.312; 1984.504.2) and those of Imam ‘Ali, son-in-law of the Prophet Muhammad, with his two martyred sons Hasan and Husayn, also carry apotropaic properties (1984.504.2; 55.121.40). ‘Ali’s miraculous sword (Dhu’l fiqar) becomes a relic and talismanic object in Islam, and is represented across various media (1976.312).

Talismans not only shield but guide their wearers; they are objects that reflect occult practices. Amulet cases (15.95.137), mirrors (1978.348.2), boxes (91.1.538), weapons (36.25.1293; 36.25.1297), talismanic shirts (1998.199) or banners (1976.312) are capable of shielding a person or group of people from the forces of evil. When a person is confronted with an ethical dilemma, all he needs to do is consult the Qur’an or one of these objects for guidance.

These imbued objects are also used as tools for scientists or as cures prescribed by physicians for various ailments (2004.244a–d). The ‘Abbasids (r. 750–1258) played an active role in the transmission of knowledge and science from the Greco-Roman world, and Arabic translations of medical and astrological texts were integral to Islamic court and daily life. Historically, the stars and the Qur’an were consulted for almost every action and medical condition, and stars and talismanic objects became interconnected; and just as the stories of the prophets found in the Qur’an acted as talismans, the stars, too, would guide a person on his/her journey in this life and the afterlife. Eventually, elaborate horoscopes and a science of letters that broke down the ninety-nine names of God (ilm al-huruf) to their individual letters were created at court to predict whether a ruler was to have an auspicious reign (1998.199; 91.1.538). (Sometimes these letters can be found on the clasp of a casket; 91.1.538.) The objects discussed here demonstrate the ways in which science, magic, and religious belief work together to endow objects with talismanic powers and protect individuals from harm".Unquote

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

So Islamic text is talismanic. Sure, thats valid. But why is ARABIC talismanic? So a book on science translated into Arabic would have some talismanic side too?

Also, not all text on arms is quranic/Islamic (but alot are) some, like this one posted by Harry is more nationalistic rather than religious.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[QUOTE=A.alnakkas]So Islamic text is talismanic. Sure, thats valid. But why is ARABIC talismanic? So a book on science translated into Arabic would have some talismanic side too?

Also, not all text on arms is quranic/Islamic (but alot are) some, like this one posted by Harry is more nationalistic rather than religious.







see http://metmuseum.org/toah/hd/tali/hd_tali.htm

... I think Forum would agree that since we are dealing with Ethnographic arms (usually) that the vast majority of script we see is directly attributed to Quranic reference. I therefor add that what I refer to as Arabic encompasses those references i.e. religious talismanic script. Thus I link practically all of the Talisman forms abobe in the met museum reference related to Islamic Arms and Armour to these main objectives seen in the Quran. Do you know any Islamic script on Ethnographic arms and Armour which are not rooted in this document? Do not all the Islamic inscriptions on weapons we study from this region stem from Islamic sources in the Quran?....


Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams harrywagner This one expands the theory of this sword representing the defence of Arabia and the Gulf. It is technically talismanic ...all arabic script is. This one is more in line with a presentation sword (as you point out) and is less likely to invoke something awful happening to anyone coming into contact with it...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

So this statement is false?

Keep in mind that not ALL Arabic script on Arab/Islamic arms is religious. A maker's name (the most prevalent) along with owner's names are NOT talismanic. This is absolutely false.

[Jim McDougall]

Discussion is OK, but I think use of the unfortunately chosen analogy is a bit over the top, and I think the reasons should be obvious. Lets keep things on topic without personal jabs.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Discussion is OK, but I think use of the unfortunately chosen analogy is a bit over the top, and I think the reasons should be obvious. Lets keep things on topic without personal jabs.

I apologize for my poor choice of analogy :-)

But the point of it, Arabic is not talismanic for the virtue of being Arabic. Something that has been repeated before and once put to question, changed to "Islamic" text being talismanic. All is good, except not everything on swords is Islamic.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I apologize for my poor choice of analogy :-)

But the point of it, Arabic is not talismanic for the virtue of being Arabic. Something that has been repeated before and once put to question, changed to "Islamic" text being talismanic. All is good, except not everything on swords is Islamic.

Well noted Lofty. I think all of us in the moment have chosen words or analogies we later rethought, I know I have. I think what you point out about the use of the term talismanic, as like many such terms there is a broad scope of application. It seems that the words or metaphoric content are better directed toward the character of the inscriptions, not necessarily the language or script itself.