japanese sword ( genuine or fake ??? )

[ferrylaki]

dear all....
I have this ( katana ) since 5 months ago, but I have no idea whether it is a real katana or a fake one. I only have the blade with out any its fittings.
I really like to know any thing about this sword...26 inch edge and 8 inch handle.
thank you before,
best regards,
ferry

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

dear all....
I have this ( katana ) since 5 months ago, but I have no idea whether it is a real katana or a fake one. I only have the blade with out any its fittings.
I really like to know any thing about this sword...26 inch edge and 8 inch handle.
thank you before,
best regards,
ferry

any body...?
please inform me if this is not etnograpic ...

[ariel]

It depends on your definition of " ethnographic" the Japanese would not define it as such...
I think it is real and old. The patina is heavy, brown and uniform, not artificially-induced. Several holes indicate that the handle was changed at the very least once.
Nihonto afficionados would insist on full polish. That would put you back several hundred bucks. Last time I heard, it's ~ $60 per inch. If you are a Nihonto freak, you have no choice but to sell your firstborn and send the sword to Japan for an authentic polish. Also, as it is not signed, you would have to request the NHBTK ( or whatever it is called) examination and certificate: another $1,000 or so.... Then you will learn that there are some defects that prevent this sword to be regarded as a masterpiece. I made a firm decision not to collect Nihonto: too expensive, too high-brow, time consuming and... they just do not speak to me
The several I have, are ready to be swapped for Shashkas: that is what I call a beautiful sword!
To each his own

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by ariel

It depends on your definition of " ethnographic" the Japanese would not define it as such...
I think it is real and old. The patina is heavy, brown and uniform, not artificially-induced. Several holes indicate that the handle was changed at the very least once.
Nihonto afficionados would insist on full polish. That would put you back several hundred bucks. Last time I heard, it's ~ $60 per inch. If you are a Nihonto freak, you have no choice but to sell your firstborn and send the sword to Japan for an authentic polish. Also, as it is not signed, you would have to request the NHBTK ( or whatever it is called) examination and certificate: another $1,000 or so.... Then you will learn that there are some defects that prevent this sword to be regarded as a masterpiece. I made a firm decision not to collect Nihonto: too expensive, too high-brow, time consuming and... they just do not speak to me
The several I have, are ready to be swapped for Shashkas: that is what I call a beautiful sword!
To each his own

thank you very much ariel.
I send an email to Mr.Kenji Mishina in japan who is a sword polisher.
I also send him some photos of my sword. but he said that he cant find any jihada either hamon in my sword. he said this sword may be not good enough to be polish. he said this in a very polite language...I really thankfull for his comment.
I know its quite expensive to have asword polished, I might not have enouhg money to do so...

regards, ferry

[ariel]

Yup, that's what I meant....
Japanese swords demand perfection. All others can be patinated or cleaned, have battle scars, nicks on the edge, missing parts, scuffed leather, cracked handles etc and still look good.
A Japanese sword looks awful if it does not look perfect.

[Andrew]

To my inexpert eye, the ridge line and kissaki (tip) look soft and ill-defined. Not generally what one expects to find in "real" nihonto.

I hope someone with more experience than I with Japanese swords will come along and comment.

Rich? Carlo?

[G. McCormack]

If I had to guess without handling it, I would say this is an old nihon-to. One that has been shortened at least a few inches, cleaned harshly in the past with abrasives, rusted a bit more, cleaned again, and someone has drilled two incorrect small holes in the tang.
Of course, I could be way off base, but turning the top pic sideways it looks like a good profile. The lines are all distorted and the habaki has at the very least been sanded and buffed or something. The shortening job is odd too, not really careful. In fact, most of the lines look off. But, I'll go out on a limb and suggest it is an old one. Just my opinion.

[Mark]

I believe the hole positions look odd because the tang has ben shortened.

From what I hear, in the US Robert Benson is one of the best polishers. I cannot recommend him from personal experience, however, just suggest him by reputation. He ID'd my gunto (unsigned tang) to period & school, so I imagine he could tell you something about yours if you want to send it to him for evaluation. http://www.bushidojapaneseswords.com/

Am I wrong, or is it problematic to send nihon-to back to Japan? I thought they would be confiscated as contraband if not art swords (non-art swords are illegal in Japan), and confiscated as national treasures if they were. Great Catch-22 there.

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by Mark

I believe the hole positions look odd because the tang has ben shortened.

From what I hear, in the US Robert Benson is one of the best polishers. I cannot recommend him from personal experience, however, just suggest him by reputation. He ID'd my gunto (unsigned tang) to period & school, so I imagine he could tell you something about yours if you want to send it to him for evaluation. http://www.bushidojapaneseswords.com/

Am I wrong, or is it problematic to send nihon-to back to Japan? I thought they would be confiscated as contraband if not art swords (non-art swords are illegal in Japan), and confiscated as national treasures if they were. Great Catch-22 there.

hi Mark,
I agree with you, Mr Kenji Mishina told me that he do not put interest on WWII era sword. most japanese doesnt. they may consider it not worthy to be collected. finding real nihonto is quite difficult out side japan. since the japanese soldier once landed in Indonesia, so I though it might be some real nihonto left. mostly shingunto, but who know? I might get lucky and find a nihonto....most people who own japanese sword I ever met didnt allow me to open the tang. Judging from the sword it self seem almost impossible since those sword mostly in very bad condition, badly rust. and people here like their sword sharp, then they use sand paper or stone. very wrong move....

regards,
ferry

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

hi Mark,
I agree with you, Mr Kenji Mishina told me that he do not put interest on WWII era sword. most japanese doesnt. they may consider it not worthy to be collected. finding real nihonto is quite difficult out side japan. since the japanese soldier once landed in Indonesia, so I though it might be some real nihonto left. mostly shingunto, but who know? I might get lucky and find a nihonto....most people who own japanese sword I ever met didnt allow me to open the tang. Judging from the sword it self seem almost impossible since those sword mostly in very bad condition, badly rust. and people here like their sword sharp, then they use sand paper or stone. very wrong move....

regards,
ferry

here more pics to see
have a look please...

[Emanuel]

Hello Ferrylaki,

Maybe you could try passing a bit of lime juice on a spot of the blade to see if it brings out any temper line/hamon. That would at least let you know if you have a sword or not.

Regards,
Emanuel

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hello Ferrylaki,

Maybe you could try passing a bit of lime juice on a spot of the blade to see if it brings out any temper line/hamon. That would at least let you know if you have a sword or not.

Regards,
Emanuel

Hai Manolo,
the lime juice, how far can it help identifying the sword. how will it look after I pour the lime juice to its edge? is the iron getting whiter or more contrast between the edge and the upper part? the sword once badly rust , then some one clean the rust using autosol / metal polish....so it made the sword dull...the edge line is still straight in its line and the geometry is difinitely perfect.

[Emanuel]

Hi Ferry,

The citric acid will darken the edge considerably if it's tempered. If you have the differential temper, then it may mean you have a forged Japanese sword. If there is a hamon, then Mr. Mishina may be more interested to examine the sword. If there is no temper line, then it could be the mass-produced WWII kind or a newer piece.

Here is an example from one of my blades.

Emanuel

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hi Ferry,

The citric acid will darken the edge considerably if it's tempered. If you have the differential temper, then it may mean you have a forged Japanese sword. If there is a hamon, then Mr. Mishina may be more interested to examine the sword. If there is no temper line, then it could be the mass-produced WWII kind or a newer piece.

Here is an example from one of my blades.

Emanuel

as I know, the mass produced WWII sword also has temper line.
my sword once been cleaned using citric acid, and it remove all the rust.
and at the same time showing some kind of different colour on the edge...left the tiny dots forming a line( like nie ) like this picture. but maybe I should try put some citric acid again, just to make sure...thanks manolo.

regards,
ferry

[Emanuel]

Ahh didn't know the wwii were also tempered...anyway give it a try and see.

All the best,
Emanuel

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Ahh didn't know the wwii were also tempered...anyway give it a try and see.

All the best,
Emanuel

reading some articles.
WWII swords are oil tempered.
but I dont know the different.
I'll try....

[Battara]

I'm not sure that this is a WWII blade. An oil tempered blade would look frosty at the temper and the pattern is consitent. Oil tempered blades were usually machine made blades and did not even have a hada (grain).

I might try sending it to a US polisher and pay for him to polish a "window", a small section of the blade to see if there is any grain and thus if it is worth a true polish, older or WWII machine made blade.

Another possiblility is to try the nihonto guys over at the Swordforum.com under the Nihon-to section with your pictures.

[jwkiernan]

All,

I have been lurking around the forum for some time and thought this would be a good oppertunity to post. Whereas I am no expert in Nihonto, I do have a bit of experience with them.

I will agree with just about everything posted herein and add a few other comments. In my own humble opionion, I too agree that it is an old sword, allbiet mistreated somewhere in its life, but old. The nakago (tang) has good, old blackening rust. The largest mekugiana (tsuka or handle pin hole) in the nakago appears to have been punched (older technique) and also exibits the same color rust as the surface of the nakago (another good indication of age). The smaller , newer mekugiana are drilled via a drill (who'd thought that <G>). It is not uncommon to see two mekugiana drilled in older blades that were later outfitted in gunto or military fillings (very common). The nakagojiri, the very end of the nakago, is also very square, usually the result of shortening (very common).

The lines on the blade are not crisp, but this can be attributed to the abuse it has suffered over the years. If you pull the habaki back and look at the hamachi (notch were the nakago turns into the blade), you can normally tell, roughly how many times a blade has been sharpened (the less of a notch, the more times it has been sharpened....usually.

So, the long and the short of it, in my opionion, for what it is worth, you have an old, authentic blade. Can it be, or better yet, should it be brought back to life...that's up to you (and your wallet!!<G>). Looking at the photos, I didn't see any openings in the blade, loose laminations or cracks....that is good thing, on the downside, it is very pitted, especially in the kissaki area (tip). There are several reputable polishers (togi) here in the USA that have studied in Japan under master togi's. Polishing a Japanese sword should be left up to someone who knows what they are doing, remember, polishing a blade is an irreversable, destructive process. Sending to Japan is a risky, and a very expensive affair. Having someone do a window polish as someone suggested is a good idea. It will help determine if the blade is worth the investment of a full polish or not (and your blade definetly needs a full polish), show the hamon (temper line) as well as the hada (forging pattern). However, once again, make sure it is someone who is qualified to do the work!! You can make a blade worthless if an untrained person tries to polish it!!

I have definetly rattled on long enough. I hope it has helped. Take care .

My best reguards to all,

John

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by Battara

I'm not sure that this is a WWII blade. An oil tempered blade would look frosty at the temper and the pattern is consitent. Oil tempered blades were usually machine made blades and did not even have a hada (grain).

I might try sending it to a US polisher and pay for him to polish a "window", a small section of the blade to see if there is any grain and thus if it is worth a true polish, older or WWII machine made blade.

Another possiblility is to try the nihonto guys over at the Swordforum.com under the Nihon-to section with your pictures.

thanks battara,
for this moment I just gonna keep the sword.
I have no experience sending sword overseas, do you have any suggestion which polisher I should send my sword to?

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

thanks battara,
for this moment I just gonna keep the sword.
I have no experience sending sword overseas, do you have any suggestion which polisher I should send my sword to?

Hi Ferrylaki.

Even if no expert would make a definitive reply based on these poor pictures
I've no reputation to loose so here are my 2 cents :

your sword *possibly* is an antique one (pre WWII) that was mounted in
Shingunto way (WWII officer mounts) hence the two smaller holes before
and after the original bigger one. The one toward the blade is the one that
originally hosted the screw-like Mekugi, the one near the end of the tang
hosted the "Sarute", a ring holding a knot changing in colors accordingly to
the officer's rank. Might be the sword has been shortened for this purpose,
(to fullfill the army's requirements or for mounting reasons) as the shape of
the tang seems odd and the absence of another older mekugiana (hole for
retaining pin) suggests it hasn't been shortened in ancient times for
remounting.
You can eventually confirm/deny this telling us something about the
provenance and the mounting if info available.

Your sword has been bring back by some GI's and later left in oblivion till to
begun very rusty.
Someone not trained to Togi (traditional japanese polishing) attempted to
give it some dignity but destroyed the lines and possibly exposed the inner
steel (you show only one side of the blade). Then, in some way the sword
reached your hands (gift/purchase/inherited).

The matter if it worths the money of a traditional polishing is a personal one.
I've lost money on some swords that appealed to me but that
weren't economically worth the polishing. I'm a romantic.

Still exists the possibility your sword is a machine made one or a fake.
These lines are written at 02,17 PM italian time and online judgements that
pretends to be accurate (on NihonTo, at least) are simply a foolish thing.

Cheers.

[tsubame1]

The more I watch at it, the less I'm convinced.
The difference in dimension between the mekugiana is something that puzzle
me.
Usually multiple ancient mekugiana have roughly the same dimensions












but even ancestral blades mounted in Shingunto are not different :

http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_023.htm






and Shinshinto handachi mounted swords (Handachi is an Edo period mounting similar to Shingunto, with Sarute) are similar in placement but still with the
same larger dimensions in the holes :



This last has not been shortened. I'm sure because it's mine.

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by tsubame1

The more I watch at it, the less I'm convinced.
The difference in dimension between the mekugiana is something that puzzle
me.
Usually multiple ancient mekugiana have roughly the same dimensions












but even ancestral blades mounted in Shingunto are not different :



thanks ,
this sword diffenetely been shortened. the two small ana are added later. and the tang has been cut. if only we can see the hamon, it would be easier for us to say whether it is old or a gunto WWII period.
I found the sword has wooden saya covered with brown leather...it is a shingunto mounth am I right?

best regards,

ferry

http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_023.htm






and Shinshinto handachi mounted swords (Handachi is an Edo period mounting similar to Shingunto, with Sarute) are similar in placement but still with the
same larger dimensions in the holes :



This last has not been shortened. I'm sure because it's mine.

thanks ,
this sword diffenetely been shortened. the two small ana are added later. and the tang has been cut. if only we can see the hamon, it would be easier for us to say whether it is old or a gunto WWII period.
I found the sword has wooden saya covered with brown leather...it is a shingunto mounth am I right?

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

I found the sword has wooden saya covered with brown leather...it is a shingunto mounth am I right?

A wooden saya covered with brown leather (if not fake) may have been
a civilian one adapted to military service. If it's laquered other then military
green, most likely it was.
IF not a fake.
Hereunder how the cover should look like.
See also http://127.0.0.1:800/Default/www.h4..../gunto_034.htm

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by tsubame1

A wooden saya covered with brown leather (if not fake) may have been
a civilian one adapted to military service. If it's laquered other then military
green, most likely it was.
IF not a fake.
Hereunder how the cover should look like.
See also http://127.0.0.1:800/Default/www.h4..../gunto_034.htm

HI,
it has the saya just like your picture, but in bad condition.
with three clip , the ring and a hanger ( in plain decoration ).
so it is a civilian sword mounted in shingunto way.
thank you very much...

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by tsubame1

A wooden saya covered with brown leather (if not fake) may have been
a civilian one adapted to military service. If it's laquered other then military
green, most likely it was.
IF not a fake.
Hereunder how the cover should look like.
See also http://127.0.0.1:800/Default/www.h4..../gunto_034.htm

here is the saya, I just got the picture and the saya.

[tsubame1]

Sorry for late reply Ferrylaki but seems my e-mail doesn't receive
addvise of new posting in subscibed threads. I've to check my profile.

Now chances you've an antique one remounted for WWII purpose are
increased. Likely the assumption "re-mounted, in oblivion and then badly
polished" is the right one. Don't sell the saya (obvious enough..).
Don't make anything more on your own to the blade and tang other then oiling/cleaning it with paper unshented tissues.
Remove the Habaki (collar), keep the blade lightly oiled and OUT of that saya because likely it retain moisture. Mineral oil, not engine one.
Simply wrap the oiled blade in newspapers.
Your climate should be very humid. think about this when you choose the place where to store the blade waiting to find someone knowledgeable enough
to make an "on-hand" appraisal. NihonTo Message Board surely can address
you to someone to have a window polished to have a better
understanding of the period and to evaluate an eventual restoration.
Remember that such restoration will mean a complete polishing, a new plain wood scabbard and handle (shirasaya) and most likely a new Habaki (collar) too. Not a cheap trip, and possibly not economically convenient.
Depends on what sort out from that "window".
Be aware. NihonTo are like vampires. Once you've been beaten you are doomed...

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by tsubame1

Sorry for late reply Ferrylaki but seems my e-mail doesn't receive
addvise of new posting in subscibed threads. I've to check my profile.

Now chances you've an antique one remounted for WWII purpose are
increased. Likely the assumption "re-mounted, in oblivion and then badly
polished" is the right one. Don't sell the saya (obvious enough..).
Don't make anything more on your own to the blade and tang other then oiling/cleaning it with paper unshented tissues.
Remove the Habaki (collar), keep the blade lightly oiled and OUT of that saya because likely it retain moisture. Mineral oil, not engine one.
Simply wrap the oiled blade in newspapers.
Your climate should be very humid. think about this when you choose the place where to store the blade waiting to find someone knowledgeable enough
to make an "on-hand" appraisal. NihonTo Message Board surely can address
you to someone to have a window polished to have a better
understanding of the period and to evaluate an eventual restoration.
Remember that such restoration will mean a complete polishing, a new plain wood scabbard and handle (shirasaya) and most likely a new Habaki (collar) too. Not a cheap trip, and possibly not economically convenient.
Depends on what sort out from that "window".
Be aware. NihonTo are like vampires. Once you've been beaten you are doomed...

thank you very much tsubame...
your opinion convince me more and more that I'm on the right path on collecting my nihonto..

regards,
ferry