Plz help with ID of 2 Daggers

[Justin]

Im not quite sure what I have here.The first one, Im thinking ,is from Turkey.
11in long oa,and the blade is almost 7in long.Pretty much cylindrical horn grip,brass ferrule,bolster and pommel cap.


The second I have seen a few of on ebay from time to time,from small knives to short sword sized,this one is 13 1/2 in oa,blade is 9in.Very thin forged blade with engraving and possibly writing on one side.Pommel and guard are horn the handle scales are bone or ivory.Im guessing North Africa on this one.

[tom hyle]

I see what you mean about the second one looking N African/Berbese, especially the marks on the blade, but has the handle lost substantial portions to breakage? Was it not once fairly extravagantly "I" shaped? With the tips all curling inward like that it reminds me of some Indian hilts. Then again, there are the khoumiys with the big curvy pommels, too.......

[Justin]

Not broken at all except that on bone scale is cracked, but nothing is missing,my first thought was actually that with an I shaped hilt it would be very much like a 'Zanzibar Sword'.



For comparison:

[ariel]

The first one is a typical Turkish dagger from the Trabzon area, a close relation of my avatar, the Laz Bicaq.
These daggers are characterized by a complex system of fullers and I can clearly see it on your pic.
In Timonium, I saw one with a handle wrapped with thin reddish and green leather thongs, exactly in the manner of the classic Black Sea Yataghan's scabbard, and with leather "ears" over the bolster, also just like BSY (Laz Bicaq). I almost wanted to buy it just as the "missing link", but the price was exorbitant.

[tom hyle]

The Zanzibar hilt is quite differently shaped, the ends not curving inward to grip the hand; the closest E African/etc. equivalent to such hilt would probably be the X handle Hadendoa daggers. Less relevant, as it is not broken off. The double-line zigzag on the blade is something I see on a lot of Berbese work. The multipart pinned hilt construction reminds me of choora though. I think it's a fairly modern piece, and possibly of multicultural influence.
I don't know that I'd call the other one a dagger. Dagger-knife, maybe; it has features meant for violence, but overall was probably carried for every day cutting tasks. Seems rather on the kard side of things. The recurved blade seems regionally appropriate. Nice looking blade.

[Ian]

Hi Justin:

Your second knife with the bone/ivory handle is from Turkey, probably early 20th C. There is an identical example shown in Levine, p.481.*

Here is Levine's description: "About 15 inches overall. Curved blade with arabic inscription. Hook-like pommel and guard of ebony. Brass sheath. 19th-20th centuries."

I know Mike D. has a copy of Levine with details of this knife.

Ian.

----------------------------------------

* Bernard Levine. Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values. Fifth edition. Krause Publication, Iola, WI. 2001

[erlikhan]

the 2nd is from Turkey,and yes, early 20th c. They are called "saldirma" (translation can be "for offense") , or "Surmene" , after the town of Trabzon province in Black sea region, where they were most popular, in 20th c. But before that era, the model was widely used not restricted to any region, but whole Turkey and Balkans. I attach one's picture. The scabbard is not completely original, has changed some, but roughly ok. to give some idea. They were formed, two or three similar knives in sibgle scabbard. Older ones usually can have dragon on the tip of scabbard. I have seen one brass scabbard with three holes for knives, small like yours, even far smaller, classical dragon tip, found in a village tumulus from Seljuks ,13-14th c. in close past ,early 20th c., i think they were preferred by gangs,bandits, street fighters, with main advantages of lightness and ability to just wound someone instead of killing, so that you dont get sentenced.

[Justin]

Ariel:I thought there was some resemblance to the black sea yataghan,Im glad that you backed that up for me,thanks{now if I can just find a blck sea yat to go with it )

erlikhan:which one are you talking about,the one with fullers?or the one with the bone?Im getting confused now that it seems they are both Turkish.


Thanks Ian and Tom this is turning out to be a very helpful thread and I appreciate everyones comments.{Ian Ill have to ask Mike about that,I dont recall seeing that book but knowing Mike it may very well be stashed away somewhere,like most of us he has to dig through swords and knives to find his books )

[tom hyle]

erlikhan, I'm pretty sure you're referring to the first of Justin's pieces, not the second? The pieces you show are rather different from either. Most notable with reference to the (Turkic?) flattened flat tang handles, while Justin's has round stalk tang handle. One of those you show is clearly a knife, or bichaq, while the other has the attenuated point associated with some violent forms. Justin's is broad at the tip, but also reasonably stabby, especially with its swedged spine/false edge (IMHO it's a superior weapon, but the super-narrow attenuated tip is clearly considered a violent feature in those cultures that employ it, while the broader tip is nonspecified. The even broader tip on the bichaq type seen here is not really for stabbing, though, much like a screwdriver or a "Roman" point it would go in to belly or thigh well enough. Justin's recurve seems different than either of yours. These may be simply variations with time and purpose; the ethnicity may be the same; the knives are rather different. I'd love to see pics of more examples of the other; the resemblance to the Indian dagger (chilanum?) in the curl of the ends of the upper and lower guards is striking, though as I've mentioned, some khoumiyas also exhibit a similar feature at the pommel.

[erlikhan]

1st..2nd.. right, I mean the one he mentions as "from Turkey". . The handles are different ,correct. But I am 100 % sure both his one and the one I show are from the same Black sea region and same mentality. Check the fullers and proportions. I have seen both type handled and bladed samples. Just my assumption , is that flat, yataghan like handles can be older than the round ones,perhaps 19th c.,and then in 20th c., classical etnoghraphic weaponry decoration styles started to leave their place to easier types . The small one in my picture is more a tool, to cut something etc. , it could work good for something in that region where is dense woodland . As you say, his sample looks a bit more violent , perhaps closer to what I told about the early 20th c. usage of these knives. I attach 2 more samples, round and flat handled, both from the same region.
regards

[Justin]

Nice knives,they are definately related to mine but I cant help but think that we are dealing with :
A.One type of knife that has numerous variants.
B.Several knives that are similar and from the same region but are actually diffent knives.{I favor B}

Just a note on the tip of fullered Turkish dagger,the last 1/5in of the tip is NOT sharpened which I presumed was to help strengthen the tip for said thrusting purposes.


The last knife posted reminds me more of these guys:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002096.html

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002492.html

[tom hyle]

Yeah, it does, and all Ottoman/Turkic, of course. These multifullered jobbies seem to have been/be made with a definite "art dagger" side to them, and considerable variation is perhaps attendant to that concept (I'm not trying to say they're not for use, but that visual stunningness and individuality of design seems to be prized in the cutlery from this region; contributing to fanciness/desireability much as do precious materials for instance.).
Justin, I've commonly seen the effect you describe; a bevelled edge fading out into a flat unsharp edge with square corners at the tip. I have not seen it as consistent in any cultural setting, but it seems fairly common on E African spears and daggers, and I think I've seen it on Arab (per se) work, too, and from Europe (difinitely from Europe; the sentence structure got weird on me....). The idea does seem to be to prevent crumpling/"fish-hooking" of the bevel at the tip.
Who wants to talk about the "stall" or "pad" for the pinky finger? Seems a Tartaric feature. Seems to relate to the subhilt/stall/pad for the first one or two fingers also seen on some modern Turkish etc. work, and those to similar features on ancient steppes swords.
Though not usually set off by a grooved line, the narrowing of a tulwar hilt at the top before the pommel may also be related; it provides a similar gripping place for the small finger.
Erlikhan, I want to disagree with you more, just so you'll keep showing me nice pictures Lots of variety in this region, but the experts and the books have always created an impression/atmosphere of homogeneity that does not seem to be borne out by facts on the ground, pretty well all around the cutlery world.

[Conogre]

Keeping secrets from me, eh, Justin?
Here's another of the "Surmene" daggers/knives, this one a little guy at 8" long with a 4" blade and pink dyed ivory hilt scales, and even with its diminuative size has a clearly defined hardened edge and an extremely long wicked point that makes it "feel" more lethal than a cursory glance would indicate, and now that you mention it, I can see the definite resemblence to a yatagan in the end of the hilt.
It also, of course, works extremely well as a "steak knife of the world"!
I got this one and a Yatagan both from a gentleman in Izmir who had related the information to me about the knives being peculiar to the region but have never seen it verified elsewhere until now...thank you.
Like Justin, I also have to second the motion and hope that you've overlooked a Black Sea yatagan or two, as that's #1 on my "quest list".
I have to admit to being somewhat surprised to find that both styles are from Turkey....now I REALLY have to dig and find my copy of Levine's....thanks a lot, Ian, as sometimes it's harder to find things here than it is on the internet!
Mike

[erlikhan]

Well Tom, what you want is easy. I can post as many Surmene pictures as many you wish, as they are plenty here in market and offered continuously on internet. Seller says this one is 41 cms. A big one with some silver inlay. Perhaps I must pay more attention to them and collect some while they are still not expensive?? .
I just think, both the pinky finger pad and the unsharp edged tip are to support and strengthen the thrusts. By "Tartaric",you mean Crimean Tartars or Middle Ajia? On which samples does the pad exist? Or both?
regards

[Justin]

erlikhan:Thanks for posting all the examples for comparison.This last one with the ears seems to have an almost identical sheath to mine.

So the first one is a Surmene.What do I call the other one,Im surprised that theres been few comments on it,I know I have seen these around before.

[Mark]

That is one cool-looking knife, erlikhan!

[Conogre]

erlikhan, you have me curious (and drooling) when you state that the "Surmene daggers/knives" are continuously offered on the internet, as I comb the net (including Ebay) with regularity and have yet to see more than one or two in the past five years....would you possibly have a link to a dealer that sells to westerners that has them occasionally?
I would definitely like to add at least a few more to my collection, and likewise, would have no problem with some that you could purchase at your local market.
While the 2nd knife hasn't garnered much comment, I couldn't help but notice that the "maker's mark" on the blade of Lee's knife is nearly identical to that same knife, which would possibly indicate that at one time they were more common and of much higher quality.
Mike

[erlikhan]

Conogre, these are local Turkish sites. Not international. Export of any kind of antiques from Turkey is strictly forbidden. Even a ww2 or post war dagger or bayonet can simply be thought as a potential antique and held by customs, which means economical catastrophe for the sender to be able to take it back. Just depends on the mood and knowledge of the custom official on duty in mail control. The seller can take a "not antique" document from museum per piece in advance, but would cost a lot of money. So you would hardly be able to find a local seller to mail it abroad.
regards