How old are the katar types?

[Jens Nordlunde]

From 1650 to 1800 the Danish kings had their own private museum, containing many different things - katars as well.

From 1648 to 1845 Denmark had a trading post called Tranquebar on the south east coast of India, and many Indian items were shipped home to the royal Danish museum. Amongst the things were also the five katars shown on the picture.
The ones who collected the items did not write from where in India the different items came, nor did they write in which year they had been collected, or if they were new or used at the time, but we do know something else, we know when the katars entered the collection. They entered the colelction in the end of the 17th century.

[Ian]

Jens:

Thank you for posting these most interesting pieces with a clear provenance to pre-1700. They are all in great condition, with the two left-most examples looking as though they were just made. Excellent preservation over the years by museum staff.

The central one looks the "oldest" to me, and it appears that the left edge of the blade (as we look at it) is shorter than the right. Also, there appear to be some marks on the blade further down. Could this be a remount of an earlier knife which had a partially sharpened back edge? Is it possible this might be a European blade that was custom remounted? Just a passing thought.

Ian.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ian,
In the book it say that it is a shortened European sword blade.
What I find interesting is, that even with dated blades you can not be quite sure, the dating was made when the katar was new, or sometime later, maybe 'helping' a bit on the age when dating it. But in this case we know for sure that the katars are, at least from the 17th century.
Jens

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

From 1650 to 1800 the Danish kings had their own private museum, containing many different things - katars as well.

From 1648 to 1845 Denmark had a trading post called Tranquebar on the south east coast of India, and many Indian items were shipped home to the royal Danish museum. Amongst the things were also the five katars shown on the picture.
The ones who collected the items did not write from where in India the different items came, nor did they write in which year they had been collected, or if they were new or used at the time, but we do know something else, we know when the katars entered the collection. They entered the colelction in the end of the 17th century.

Hi Jens
Thank you for posting this, I found it very interesting. It does not look like Katars have changed much over the years. I have taken the liberty of showing some Katars that I have which go to emphasize this point which makes it difficult to age them.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,
The first katar you show is very worn, and the second one in quite a good condition.
None of us know, which katar has beeen cleaned how many times, so the wear can be a hint, but a recent dealer with a very rusty katar could also be a hint. We can not be quite sure.
I am researching the first katar you show, but have nothing final yet.

As to the development of the katar I have taken it back to the 10th century of Orissa, but this does not mean that it could not be older - that is how far back I got it when I researched. (How Old is the Katar? Royal Armouries Journal, Leeds).
The katar then had a very heavy blade, only one cross bar and no side guards. A diety holds it in one of her hands, but if all katars looked like that at the time is not certain - they might have, or maybe not.

If this really is one of the first katar types, I have no doubt, that they would very soon after have developed a better grip, and side guards for a better protection.
Jens

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Miguel,
The first katar you show is very worn, and the second one in quite a good condition.
None of us know, which katar has beeen cleaned how many times, so the wear can be a hint, but a recent dealer with a very rusty katar could also be a hint. We can not be quite sure.
I am researching the first katar you show, but have nothing final yet.

As to the development of the katar I have taken it back to the 10th century of Orissa, but this does not mean that it could not be older - that is how far back I got it when I researched. (How Old is the Katar? Royal Armouries Journal, Leeds).
The katar then had a very heavy blade, only one cross bar and no side guards. A diety holds it in one of her hands, but if all katars looked like that at the time is not certain - they might have, or maybe not.

If this really is one of the first katar types, I have no doubt, that they would very soon after have developed a better grip, and side guards for a better protection.
Jens

Hi Jens,
You have probably got this book but Mahgrib to Moghul shows a picture of a two pronged katar with an exact same hilt with four riveted crossbars as mine also Stone also shows an illustration of one with a two pronged blade and what appears to be the same hilt. These are the only two images I have seen of a hilt with four riveted cross bars but in each case neither age or region of origin were stated. Thanks a lot for your comments and interest and I look forward to learning what you may discover about my first item.
Best regards
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,
Yes I have the book, but I am amased how Terry and many other authors doesn't even try to give a date or a place - well some try to give a date, but very few try to give a place of origin.
I know why they try to avoid it, as it is very hard, as wepons were moved a lot around those days, and weapon smiths as well (due to winners and loosers of battles) - but when it comes to these katars, there are still some pointers. The protrusion, although it differes a lot, and the blades - which also differ - but still.

I have a number of these katars, and when they have two or three cross bars the bars are quite sturdy, but from four and upwards they are quite thin.

There is another group, which I think may belong to these katars, but they are without protrusions.

However I am still researching, on and off, as I have other researches going.

Jens

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,
Maybe this thread will interest you http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...trusion+katars

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Miguel,
Maybe this thread will interest you http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...trusion+katars

Hi Jens,
Thank you so much for pointing out this thread it proved to be very interesting, I have learned some more facts about katars. What did strike me was that in most of the pictures the blades were much slimmer and more elegant than mine. Do you think that this points to a different region or just a different model? Incidentally on the shoulders of the other two katars That I posted there is some form of writing, if you do not mind I will post some photos of it to you to see what you make of it. I also have another katar that I would like to share. I can't post at the moment as I am on my iPad but will do so Asaph. Thanks again for passing on some of your knowledge it really is most appreciated.
Best regards
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,
It does not matter if you have a katar or a sword studded with gems or not, what matters is, that you have an interest in what you have, and want to research it further.

It is always difficult to date Indian weapons, as some of them have been made for centuries, although in many cases the decoration have been changed due to different fashons. They have also been redecorated - which makes it more difficult to put a certain age to a weapon.

So what are we after? We are after early 'museums' from where we know when they entered the 'museum'. We have the 'Danish Kunstkammer', we have the Russian collections - but we also have the Clive collection.

Lord Clive did service in India from about 1744 to about 1760, and in his collection at Powis Castle in Wales, there is a two bladed katar with protrucions. Nothing is mentioned about the age or about the origin, but we know that it was in the collection before 1760.
So his katar goes back to the first half of the 18th century.

This does not mean that all protrucion katars are that old, but it is a starting point for a research.

Jens

Correction.
Robert Clive was not the only one collecting Indian items. As his son Edward Clive and his wife added to the collection. In 1798 Edward Clive was appointed govenor of Madras, so he and his wife went to India where they stayed till 1803.
This means that the year 1760 must be moved to 1803.
No one seems to know when the different items entered the collection.
Sorry for the incorrect dating.

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Miguel,
It does not matter if you have a katar or a sword studded with gems or not, what matters is, that you have an interest in what you have, and want to research it further.

It is always difficult to date Indian weapons, as some of them have been made for centuries, although in many cases the decoration have been changed due to different fashons. They have also been redecorated - which makes it more difficult to put a certain age to a weapon.

So what are we after? We are after early 'museums' from where we know when they entered the 'museum'. We have the 'Danish Kunstkammer', we have the Russian collections - but we also have the Clive collection.

Lord Clive did service in India from about 1744 to about 1760, and in his collection at Powis Castle in Wales, there is a two bladed katar with protrucions. Nothing is mentioned about the age or about the origin, but we know that it was in the collection before 1760.
So his katar goes back to the first half of the 18th century.

This does not mean that all protrucion katars are that old, but it is a starting point for a research.

Jens

Correction.
Robert Clive was not the only one collecting Indian items. As his son Edward Clive and his wife added to the collection. In 1798 Edward Clive was appointed govenor of Madras, so he and his wife went to India where they stayed till 1803.
This means that the year 1760 must be moved to 1803.
No one seems to know when the different items entered the collection.
Sorry for the incorrect dating.

Hi Jens,

Thank you for your comments and information for which I am most grateful.
I have attached the photos of the Katar arms showing the inscriptions together with photos of my other Katar which has a more intricate design fo cross bar and more slender shoulders, it looks to be older than the Katar with the European blade and the one with the newer looking blade that I attached previously. Thanks again for your comments.
Best regards
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,
The first katar you show id a so called garsoe katar from Sind/Kutch.
The othe rone has the typical dot markings used in Bikaner - but I doubt that it is from Bikaner. Please show the whole katar.
Jens

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Miguel,
The first katar you show id a so called garsoe katar from Sind/Kutch.
The othe rone has the typical dot markings used in Bikaner - but I doubt that it is from Bikaner. Please show the whole katar.
Jens

Hi Jens,
Thank you for the info on the katar with the chased blade. The other images showing the dot marks are in fact are on the two katars I showed you previously, these being the one with the clean triangular blade with two cross bars and the one with the European blade respectively, apologies for the confusion.
Best Regards
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,
When you in the future show pictures, make sure that the friquence you show are of the same weapon - or everyone will get confused - I am still a bit confused.
Jens

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Miguel,
When you in the future show pictures, make sure that the friquence you show are of the same weapon - or everyone will get confused - I am still a bit confused.
Jens

Hi Jens,
Point taken sorry for the confusion. On my last set of photos the dot inscriptions on the arms of the katar shown on photos 2 & 3 are the arms of the second katar shown on my original photos and the inscriptions shown on photos 4 & 5 are those of the third katar shown in my original photos, trust this clears the confusion.
Best regards
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,
You can sometimes see, the dot markings, on the side guards or on the blade, and some other markings on the weapon as well. these will likely be fro other armouries, although you can not be sure which of the marking are the oldest.
However a humble guess would be, that the Bikaner dot marking is the latest. If you look at where Bikaner is placed, quite to the north and in the midth of a desert, this is the likely end place for the weapons - but sometimes you are surprised.
Jens

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Miguel,
You can sometimes see, the dot markings, on the side guards or on the blade, and some other markings on the weapon as well. these will likely be fro other armouries, although you can not be sure which of the marking are the oldest.
However a humble guess would be, that the Bikaner dot marking is the latest. If you look at where Bikaner is placed, quite to the north and in the midth of a desert, this is the likely end place for the weapons - but sometimes you are surprised.
Jens

Hi Jens
Thank you so much for sharing some of your knowledge and time in answering my queries. I hope that you also derived some enjoyment from it.
Best regards
Miguel