How old is pamor

drdavid · 22nd July 2008, 11:55 AM

I would like to pose a couple of questions about pamor.
It very likely that I simply have not read enough yet and that the development path of pamor is well known but I have not come across anything much on the topic. I apologise if I am treading old ground.

Is it possible that pamor originated somewhat incidentally, with the mixing of different materials as the keris smiths were experimenting with metallurgy and then progressed to a distinct art form in some regions of keris manufacture.

Do the historical collections or records give any indication of when the manipulation of pamor beyond the simpler form like beras wutah became commonplace?

drdavid

A. G. Maisey · 25th July 2008, 01:32 AM

No David, the development path of pamor is not at all well known. We can speculate, but that's all it is:- speculation.

If we look at other blades from various places, such as the Merovingian blades, Viking blades, etc, we know that the patterns in these blades developed from the necessity to to work the inferior ferric material in the forge, in order to produce material that was adequate for weapon construction.

This working in the forge, by repeated bending, welding, twisting, welding, created patterns in the finished blade that came to be regarded as proof of excellence in quality, so even when the quality of the base ferric material improved, smiths continued to create blades with patterns in the material, because their customers expected that proof of quality, even though it was no longer necessary.Over time, the patterns became quite elaborate, and developed into an art form, rather than a character of proof.

It is probable that a similar course of development occurred in Jawa.
The native Javanese irons seem to have been predominately high in phosphorus. These irons are "white" irons, in that they are pale grey, or mottled grey, in a finished product. However, they are not resistant to stress and tend to break easily. Irons that are darker, and that do not contain as much phosphorus would have been more scarce, possibly imported as items of trade, or refined through processing, and thus more expensive.It may be hypothesised that Javanese smiths extended the quantity of usable ferric material, by blending the native white irons with the refined or imported, and more expensive, black irons, and the resultant material provided a patterned surface that came to be known as pamor. In simple terms, "pamor" means mixed.
You could perhaps say that the development of pamor was driven by accountants:- highest possible market saturation at lowest possible cost. Humans in an organised society seem to act and think alike, no matter where, no matter when.

As to when this might have taken place, there is not a definite answer. My guess, and it is only a guess, although it is based on historical records, and logic, is that this process began in West Jawa in about the 12th.-13th. century.

To the best of my knowledge there are no literary sources that provide any insight at all into this question.

PenangsangII · 25th July 2008, 03:51 AM

Alan, are you saying 12-13 C West Java is actually Padjajaran?

A. G. Maisey · 25th July 2008, 04:03 AM

I'm reluctant to use the term Pajajaran in this context, because we cannot define the entity with sufficient clarity, but yes, in simple terms, Pajajaran.

drdavid · 25th July 2008, 09:42 AM

Thanks Alan, that is very helpful. Do you have any thoughts about when the 'artistic manipulation' of pamor beyond the natural patterns like beras wutah became commonplace. I am afraid I am making the assumption here that beras wutah is the sort of random pattern that comes from normal forging, which may be way off.
David

A. G. Maisey · 25th July 2008, 11:43 AM

Beras wutah is the natural result of forging out, bending, and welding:- the typical random pattern.

As to when manipulated patterns for artistic purposes began to appear, sorry, I cannot support a hypothesis---or more correctly, I cannot support a reasonable speculation as long as I'm wearing my western analytical hat, if I care to put my Jawa hat on, I can give all sorts of very good arguments for around about mid Majapahit---but I'm not going to go there.

22nd July 2008, 11:55 AM	#1
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	How old is pamor I would like to pose a couple of questions about pamor. It very likely that I simply have not read enough yet and that the development path of pamor is well known but I have not come across anything much on the topic. I apologise if I am treading old ground. Is it possible that pamor originated somewhat incidentally, with the mixing of different materials as the keris smiths were experimenting with metallurgy and then progressed to a distinct art form in some regions of keris manufacture. Do the historical collections or records give any indication of when the manipulation of pamor beyond the simpler form like beras wutah became commonplace? drdavid

25th July 2008, 01:32 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	No David, the development path of pamor is not at all well known. We can speculate, but that's all it is:- speculation. If we look at other blades from various places, such as the Merovingian blades, Viking blades, etc, we know that the patterns in these blades developed from the necessity to to work the inferior ferric material in the forge, in order to produce material that was adequate for weapon construction. This working in the forge, by repeated bending, welding, twisting, welding, created patterns in the finished blade that came to be regarded as proof of excellence in quality, so even when the quality of the base ferric material improved, smiths continued to create blades with patterns in the material, because their customers expected that proof of quality, even though it was no longer necessary.Over time, the patterns became quite elaborate, and developed into an art form, rather than a character of proof. It is probable that a similar course of development occurred in Jawa. The native Javanese irons seem to have been predominately high in phosphorus. These irons are "white" irons, in that they are pale grey, or mottled grey, in a finished product. However, they are not resistant to stress and tend to break easily. Irons that are darker, and that do not contain as much phosphorus would have been more scarce, possibly imported as items of trade, or refined through processing, and thus more expensive.It may be hypothesised that Javanese smiths extended the quantity of usable ferric material, by blending the native white irons with the refined or imported, and more expensive, black irons, and the resultant material provided a patterned surface that came to be known as pamor. In simple terms, "pamor" means mixed. You could perhaps say that the development of pamor was driven by accountants:- highest possible market saturation at lowest possible cost. Humans in an organised society seem to act and think alike, no matter where, no matter when. As to when this might have taken place, there is not a definite answer. My guess, and it is only a guess, although it is based on historical records, and logic, is that this process began in West Jawa in about the 12th.-13th. century. To the best of my knowledge there are no literary sources that provide any insight at all into this question.

25th July 2008, 03:51 AM	#3
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Alan, are you saying 12-13 C West Java is actually Padjajaran?

25th July 2008, 04:03 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	I'm reluctant to use the term Pajajaran in this context, because we cannot define the entity with sufficient clarity, but yes, in simple terms, Pajajaran.

25th July 2008, 09:42 AM	#5
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	Thanks Alan, that is very helpful. Do you have any thoughts about when the 'artistic manipulation' of pamor beyond the natural patterns like beras wutah became commonplace. I am afraid I am making the assumption here that beras wutah is the sort of random pattern that comes from normal forging, which may be way off. David

25th July 2008, 11:43 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Beras wutah is the natural result of forging out, bending, and welding:- the typical random pattern. As to when manipulated patterns for artistic purposes began to appear, sorry, I cannot support a hypothesis---or more correctly, I cannot support a reasonable speculation as long as I'm wearing my western analytical hat, if I care to put my Jawa hat on, I can give all sorts of very good arguments for around about mid Majapahit---but I'm not going to go there.