Indian? Decorated serrated sickle (worth a look)

Atlantia · 23rd December 2009, 06:00 PM

Well, its an oddity.
Can anyone shed any light on this please?
It was described as an 'A 19thc antique indian arit / indo persian'
Well, have a look for yourselves.
Not sure what I'm gonna do with it, had toyed with using the handle on something else, but doesn;t seem likely now. Oh, and if its for something ghastly I'll be getting rid of it for sure!
Will try and clean it up and post some clearer pictures.

Just can't kick the idea that its s.e.a, and not Indian.

colin henshaw · 23rd December 2009, 06:40 PM

Hi

It does look like its Indian, with the brass & copper - a rice sickle. I've seen some elephant goads (ankus) with a similar style to the handle. Nice form.

Regards

Atlantia · 23rd December 2009, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Hi

It does look like its Indian, with the brass & copper - a rice sickle. I've seen some elephant goads (ankus) with a similar style to the handle. Nice form.

Regards

Hi Colin,
I've seen plenty of rice sickles, but this seems way to 'fancy' and frail......
well, plenty's an exageration, but I've seen some, and they've all been rather functional and 'businesslike', can't remember any being serrated either.....
Thanks for helping bud, have a look at a side-on of the handle:

Rick · 23rd December 2009, 07:25 PM

Ceremonial in nature ?
Used by a holy man or like in the paddy ?
Blessing the crop, first cut of harvest; stuff like that ?

Not so sure about SEA

Atlantia · 23rd December 2009, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Ceremonial in nature ?
Used by a holy man or like in the paddy ?
Blessing the crop, first cut of harvest; stuff like that ?

Not so sure about SEA

Could well be.
The fine teeth make me wonder if it was for use 'at arms reach' like a mistletoe sickle?

Atlantia · 24th December 2009, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Hi

It does look like its Indian, with the brass & copper - a rice sickle. I've seen some elephant goads (ankus) with a similar style to the handle. Nice form.

Regards

Hey Colin,

Just shown it to a friend of mine from the Philipines, whose family own a rice farm and she says she thinks its a rice sickle.

Dissapointingly mundane.
But as you say, a nice form.....

Cheers
Gene

Robert · 24th December 2009, 01:05 AM

Could this possibly be from Tibet? If it is I might have an idea of what it could be.

Robert

Atlantia · 24th December 2009, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Could this possibly be from Tibet? If it is I might have an idea of what it could be.

Robert

Ello Matey!
I was just about to email you a thank you for the e-card!
Only found it yesterday amongst the ba-zillion spam messages on AOL.
Very kind and really appreciated by both of us

Whats your idea?

Gene

Robert · 24th December 2009, 03:41 AM

Hello Gene,
At one time I saw a couple of picture of a knife like this being used by a Tibetan Monk in one of their ceremonies. The pictures did not show the hilt but the blade was curved and looked to be about 8 to 10 inches in length. I remember that the blade was described as being very sharp and having a serrated edge. I've been digging around in this rust bucket that I call a brain an haven't as yet remembered where I saw the pictures.

I'm happy to hear you received the e-card and you are more than welcome.

Robert

Atlantia · 25th December 2009, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Hello Gene,
At one time I saw a couple of picture of a knife like this being used by a Tibetan Monk in one of their ceremonies. The pictures did not show the hilt but the blade was curved and looked to be about 8 to 10 inches in length. I remember that the blade was described as being very sharp and having a serrated edge. I've been digging around in this rust bucket that I call a brain an haven't as yet remembered where I saw the pictures.

I'm happy to hear you received the e-card and you are more than welcome.

Robert

Hi Robert,
Thats interesting.
According to the never wrong Wiki, reaping sickles are usually serrated (but I've never seen one with fine teeth like this).
Here are some more pictures:

Montino Bourbon · 25th December 2009, 06:27 AM

The serrations are functional. It's definitely a reaper's tool, although it may be a ceremonial one.

A. G. Maisey · 25th December 2009, 07:13 AM

I don't know what it is, but a few years back I had a piece of the same form as this, but without the serrated blade edge.

Quality of construction was quite fine, way above tool quality. The quality of construction of this piece being discussed here also appears to be above tool quality.

Tim Simmons · 26th December 2009, 01:48 PM

I was offered one of these eagerly proffered as a "Skull Scrapper"

It is a fancy harvesting knife and not just rice.

Atlantia · 26th December 2009, 02:54 PM

Hi Gentlemen, thank you all for the continued input.
TIM,
When you say 'one of these', do you mean exactly the same?
What culture did they atttribute it too, and did 'skull scraping come at a premium LOL>?

Best Gene

Tim Simmons · 26th December 2009, 06:29 PM

Not this one. This is a nice example. It was offered with great relish in a swap. To me it looks like the work seen on items from the Nepal and other mountian, foothill areas. I have seem nepalese sickles held suspendid in a wooden block on a fabric baldric. You could probably find examples on the net.

Atlantia · 28th December 2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Not this one. This is a nice example. It was offered with great relish in a swap. To me it looks like the work seen on items from the Nepal and other mountian, foothill areas. I have seem nepalese sickles held suspendid in a wooden block on a fabric baldric. You could probably find examples on the net.

Hmmm, well the plot has certainly 'thickened' but I cant seem to locate any that are quite the same.
I've pretty much exhausted google images I think LOL

Tim Simmons · 29th December 2009, 03:51 PM

First page on googling "Nepalese antique sickle"-

http://www.bluelotusgallery.com/antiques

I have see much better examples for sale on other sites.

Emanuel · 29th December 2009, 04:54 PM

Hello,

On first impression I would say Nepal as well, a hansiya ("hanshee" - what lambendh khukri used to be mistakenly called).
The handle brings to mind Afghan work on choora and lohar. Perhaps a border piece

The construction on this piece is very odd. The blade's orientation seems to be 90 degrees off and its connection to the hilt is even stranger. The hilt has a strip running along its length as if to emphasize it is made of two scales, and yet there is a nut on the but as if the tang is screwed all the way through. Would be nice to see this taken apart.
Given that only the top part of the hilt is decorated with brass, and the blade is so oddly attached on the underside, it seems to me that it was carried or showed off in this manner, not actually held and used...speculation.

Here's a pic of a hansiya, note the finely serrated edge.

All the best,
Emanuel

Emanuel · 29th December 2009, 05:03 PM

Here's another hansiya, this time it looks very similar to the one discussed, although the handle is hidden.

KuKulzA28 · 29th December 2009, 05:25 PM

I don't know too much about sickles, but in my limited experience on farms and in the fields... harvesting sickles tend to have serrations for tearing through vegetation, and tend to have a blade offset from the handle and horizontal, making it easy to cut low to the ground with a flick of the wrist.

This has both of those features, but like you all said - it's very high quality looking...

Please don't be disappointed that it's a glorified working tool. Remember it meant something real important to someone, and it is definitely an important part of these people's history. Agriculture must have been important and support this society. No food support-base to the society, and what weapons would you be collecting? They'd all be starving and dying - not much weapons manufacture if you're dying.

In my opinion, it's a nice thing to have if you have the space.

Atlantia · 29th December 2009, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

First page on googling "Nepalese antique sickle"-

http://www.bluelotusgallery.com/antiques

I have see much better examples for sale on other sites.

LOL, I didn't mean I couldn't find any sickles, just not one like this one. ITs the weird handle thats throwing me...

Right, back now. Sorry mate.

Yeah, I could find nepalese Sickles, but they 'tend' to look like rice sickles, and be fairly conventional, have you seen any with the same weird handle mine's got?

Atlantia · 29th December 2009, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Here's another hansiya, this time it looks very similar to the one discussed, although the handle is hidden.

Hi Emanuel,

Thats interesting, it does look like it might have the 'bird neck' that mine has.........

Here are some more pictures of the handle on mine.
You are right, the handle is pinned at 90degrees to the blade, as indicated by the added arrows in the picture.

Atlantia · 29th December 2009, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

I don't know too much about sickles, but in my limited experience on farms and in the fields... harvesting sickles tend to have serrations for tearing through vegetation, and tend to have a blade offset from the handle and horizontal, making it easy to cut low to the ground with a flick of the wrist.

This has both of those features, but like you all said - it's very high quality looking...

Please don't be disappointed that it's a glorified working tool. Remember it meant something real important to someone, and it is definitely an important part of these people's history. Agriculture must have been important and support this society. No food support-base to the society, and what weapons would you be collecting? They'd all be starving and dying - not much weapons manufacture if you're dying.

In my opinion, it's a nice thing to have if you have the space.

Hi KukulzA28,

Thanks, its an interesting thing for sure. I just hate not knowing all the 'wheres and whens' lol

Atlantia · 8th January 2010, 01:19 AM

Bump to see if anyone has any further thoughts

Billman · 24th February 2011, 06:43 PM

Yes this is an an Indian sickle - modern ones are sometimes found in the UK, presumably exported as samples along with cheap Indian made billhooks etc..

Modern ones are often made with a thin blade with a serrated edge (c.f. a wide hacksaw blade) rivetted to a mild steel spine (c.f. the rivetted English scythe blade, as compared to the original 100% forged ones).

Yours appears very ornate, but still a working tool, rather than ceremonial... Indian women often used ornate tools. The fine serrations indicate it is probably for rice, gather in the handful and sliced off to avoid losing the grains during harvest... European and Moroccon sickles have coarser serrations, but achieve the same effect...

They can be found listed on many Indain tool manufacturers' web pages, e.g. http://www.esuppliersindia.com/products/sickles.html or http://www.indiamart.com/ganpatimeta.../products.html

Similar (same??) tool called a royal sickle on http://defenceforumindia.com/showthr...?t=7479&page=2

VANDOO · 25th February 2011, 01:28 AM

FUNNY THIS CAME UP NOW I HAVE A FEW PICTURES WAITING.

1. PHILIPPINE IFUAGO, LUZON , RICE SICKLE 10IN. LONG, FIGURAL HORN HANDLE
2. RICE SICKLE AND HOLDER, NEPAL
3. RICE HARVESTING SICKLE, VIETNAM, NOTE THE LONG PROTRUSION IT REMINDS ME OF THE PHILIPPINE PIRAS WITH LONG PROTRUSIONS ON THE HANDLE.

Billman · 25th February 2011, 07:06 PM

Ref the Vietnamese rice sickle - these are often sold on eBay.fr as Cambodian - but I guess a similar shape is found throughout the region...

Last time I looked there were about 20 from the same seller - all reasonably priced - search for 'faucille à riz'

The Nepalese sickle also often turns up - probably brought home as a tourist souvenir. What I really want is to find some Nepalese billhooks - larger heavier tools of a similar shape, but for wood, not rice (and no I don't want a khukuri)

Sajen · 25th February 2011, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

FUNNY THIS CAME UP NOW I HAVE A FEW PICTURES WAITING.

1. PHILIPPINE IFUAGO, LUZON , RICE SICKLE 10IN. LONG, FIGURAL HORN HANDLE
2. RICE SICKLE AND HOLDER, NEPAL
3. RICE HARVESTING SICKLE, VIETNAM, NOTE THE LONG PROTRUSION IT REMINDS ME OF THE PHILIPPINE PIRAS WITH LONG PROTRUSIONS ON THE HANDLE.

Hello Barry,

the Ifuago one is very very similar with indonesian rice knifes (called ani ani). Here two examples, one from Madura, the other one is Dayak.

Regards,

Detlef

Jenny Ida · 25th February 2011, 08:08 PM

I have a similar sickle to Vandoo's Luzon one that I picked up off a lady who had been a school teacher in various SEA countries before wwII. Interestingly the hooked dragonny pommel is gone from mine, and I've read that this is the ritually important part, swapped from blade to blade perhaps for generations (and thus possibly not gifted to the curious foriegn school teacher?). It has small serations on the blade as does my plain lightweight Japanese sickle, and is cetainly a working tool, with the connection of blade and handle showing rapairs and adjustments with nails and pitch. I have another heavy Indian sickle with copper inlays in the bolster/shaft area between handle and blade, a bit fancier that we'd associate with farm tools in N America. Apparently rice harvesting is traditionally an event of major ritual importance in Asia.

23rd December 2009, 06:00 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Indian? Decorated serrated sickle (worth a look) Well, its an oddity. Can anyone shed any light on this please? It was described as an *'A 19thc antique indian arit / indo persian'* Well, have a look for yourselves. Not sure what I'm gonna do with it, had toyed with using the handle on something else, but doesn;t seem likely now. Oh, and if its for something ghastly I'll be getting rid of it for sure! Will try and clean it up and post some clearer pictures. Just can't kick the idea that its s.e.a, and not Indian.

25th December 2009, 06:27 AM	#11
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	yes, it's functional The serrations are functional. It's definitely a reaper's tool, although it may be a ceremonial one.

29th December 2009, 03:51 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	First page on googling "Nepalese antique sickle"- http://www.bluelotusgallery.com/antiques I have see much better examples for sale on other sites. Attached Images

29th December 2009, 04:54 PM	#18
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, On first impression I would say Nepal as well, a hansiya ("hanshee" - what lambendh khukri used to be mistakenly called). The handle brings to mind Afghan work on choora and lohar. Perhaps a border piece The construction on this piece is very odd. The blade's orientation seems to be 90 degrees off and its connection to the hilt is even stranger. The hilt has a strip running along its length as if to emphasize it is made of two scales, and yet there is a nut on the but as if the tang is screwed all the way through. Would be nice to see this taken apart. Given that only the top part of the hilt is decorated with brass, and the blade is so oddly attached on the underside, it seems to me that it was carried or showed off in this manner, not actually held and used...speculation. Here's a pic of a hansiya, note the finely serrated edge. All the best, Emanuel Attached Images

29th December 2009, 05:03 PM	#19
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Here's another hansiya, this time it looks very similar to the one discussed, although the handle is hidden. Attached Images

23rd December 2009, 06:40 PM	#2
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi It does look like its Indian, with the brass & copper - a rice sickle. I've seen some elephant goads (ankus) with a similar style to the handle. Nice form. Regards

23rd December 2009, 07:25 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Ceremonial in nature ? Used by a holy man or like in the paddy ? Blessing the crop, first cut of harvest; stuff like that ? Not so sure about SEA

24th December 2009, 01:05 AM	#7
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Could this possibly be from Tibet? If it is I might have an idea of what it could be. Robert

24th December 2009, 03:41 AM	#9
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Gene, At one time I saw a couple of picture of a knife like this being used by a Tibetan Monk in one of their ceremonies. The pictures did not show the hilt but the blade was curved and looked to be about 8 to 10 inches in length. I remember that the blade was described as being very sharp and having a serrated edge. I've been digging around in this rust bucket that I call a brain an haven't as yet remembered where I saw the pictures. I'm happy to hear you received the e-card and you are more than welcome. Robert

25th December 2009, 07:13 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	I don't know what it is, but a few years back I had a piece of the same form as this, but without the serrated blade edge. Quality of construction was quite fine, way above tool quality. The quality of construction of this piece being discussed here also appears to be above tool quality.

26th December 2009, 01:48 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I was offered one of these eagerly proffered as a "Skull Scrapper" It is a fancy harvesting knife and not just rice.

26th December 2009, 02:54 PM	#14
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Gentlemen, thank you all for the continued input. TIM, When you say 'one of these', do you mean exactly the same? What culture did they atttribute it too, and did 'skull scraping come at a premium LOL>? Best Gene

26th December 2009, 06:29 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Not this one. This is a nice example. It was offered with great relish in a swap. To me it looks like the work seen on items from the Nepal and other mountian, foothill areas. I have seem nepalese sickles held suspendid in a wooden block on a fabric baldric. You could probably find examples on the net.

29th December 2009, 05:25 PM	#20
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I don't know too much about sickles, but in my limited experience on farms and in the fields... harvesting sickles tend to have serrations for tearing through vegetation, and tend to have a blade offset from the handle and horizontal, making it easy to cut low to the ground with a flick of the wrist. This has both of those features, but like you all said - it's very high quality looking... Please don't be disappointed that it's a glorified working tool. Remember it meant something real important to someone, and it is definitely an important part of these people's history. Agriculture must have been important and support this society. No food support-base to the society, and what weapons would you be collecting? They'd all be starving and dying - not much weapons manufacture if you're dying. In my opinion, it's a nice thing to have if you have the space.

8th January 2010, 01:19 AM	#24
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Bump to see if anyone has any further thoughts

24th February 2011, 06:43 PM	#25
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Indian sickle Yes this is an an Indian sickle - modern ones are sometimes found in the UK, presumably exported as samples along with cheap Indian made billhooks etc.. Modern ones are often made with a thin blade with a serrated edge (c.f. a wide hacksaw blade) rivetted to a mild steel spine (c.f. the rivetted English scythe blade, as compared to the original 100% forged ones). Yours appears very ornate, but still a working tool, rather than ceremonial... Indian women often used ornate tools. The fine serrations indicate it is probably for rice, gather in the handful and sliced off to avoid losing the grains during harvest... European and Moroccon sickles have coarser serrations, but achieve the same effect... They can be found listed on many Indain tool manufacturers' web pages, e.g. http://www.esuppliersindia.com/products/sickles.html or http://www.indiamart.com/ganpatimeta.../products.html Similar (same??) tool called a royal sickle on http://defenceforumindia.com/showthr...?t=7479&page=2 Attached Images Last edited by Billman; 24th February 2011 at 07:08 PM.

25th February 2011, 01:28 AM	#26
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	FUNNY THIS CAME UP NOW I HAVE A FEW PICTURES WAITING. 1. PHILIPPINE IFUAGO, LUZON , RICE SICKLE 10IN. LONG, FIGURAL HORN HANDLE 2. RICE SICKLE AND HOLDER, NEPAL 3. RICE HARVESTING SICKLE, VIETNAM, NOTE THE LONG PROTRUSION IT REMINDS ME OF THE PHILIPPINE PIRAS WITH LONG PROTRUSIONS ON THE HANDLE. Attached Images

25th February 2011, 07:06 PM	#27
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Ref the Vietnamese rice sickle - these are often sold on eBay.fr as Cambodian - but I guess a similar shape is found throughout the region... Last time I looked there were about 20 from the same seller - all reasonably priced - search for 'faucille à riz' The Nepalese sickle also often turns up - probably brought home as a tourist souvenir. What I really want is to find some Nepalese billhooks - larger heavier tools of a similar shape, but for wood, not rice (and no I don't want a khukuri)

25th February 2011, 08:08 PM	#29
Jenny Ida Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 12	I have a similar sickle to Vandoo's Luzon one that I picked up off a lady who had been a school teacher in various SEA countries before wwII. Interestingly the hooked dragonny pommel is gone from mine, and I've read that this is the ritually important part, swapped from blade to blade perhaps for generations (and thus possibly not gifted to the curious foriegn school teacher?). It has small serations on the blade as does my plain lightweight Japanese sickle, and is cetainly a working tool, with the connection of blade and handle showing rapairs and adjustments with nails and pitch. I have another heavy Indian sickle with copper inlays in the bolster/shaft area between handle and blade, a bit fancier that we'd associate with farm tools in N America. Apparently rice harvesting is traditionally an event of major ritual importance in Asia.