Kerises: Bali vs. Jawa etc

ariel · 1st March 2013, 11:31 PM

Once again, sorry for my naivete.
According to Frey's book, Jawanese kerises are incomparably more complex from the technical point of view than the Balinese ones.
If so, why do we see so many modern Jawanese blades and so few Balinese ones on the market?

David · 2nd March 2013, 12:20 AM

Can you reference the page for that observation?
Javanese keris certainly tend to have a greater variety of pamor patterns, if that can be considered as more "complexity".

ariel · 2nd March 2013, 01:18 AM

Sure.
P. 38: "....one of the simpler forms -the Balinese blade..."

P.39: " The working of Javanese blades is far more complex".

Details of manufacturing processes follow each reference.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd March 2013, 05:06 AM

Possibly Mr.Frey had in mind the variety and complexity of pamor patterns in Javanese blades, as David has suggested, possibly he also had in mind the variety of forms (dhapur) in Javanese keris, compared to Balinese.

Balinese blades very often have a very refined execution, even though the actual form may be more simple than the Javanese. Still, Balinese blades and Javanese blades are part of the same base culture, not spinoffs from that culture as are , say, the Peninsula and Bugis keris.

Javanese keris developed along more complex lines because of the influence of Islamic metal workers along the north coast, Bali did not receive this influence, thus development in techniques and technology was slower and more limited.

Ariel,in respect of your actual question which concerns comparative numbers of recently produced blades to be found in the market place, Bali did not have a revival of keris culture in the 1970's as did Jawa. Dietrich Drescher attempted to revive interest, but it never really got off the ground. Balinese recent keris production just bounced along servicing the local demand for a long time. In "Keris Bali" a lot of modern makers are listed, but their production seems to be very limited and still seems to be focussed on local production.

In comparison, Javanese production is focussed not only on local traditional needs, but also on the art market, which is probably 99% Indonesian based. Many people in Jawa regard the Javanese keris, ie, the blade, as the highest expression of the Javanese plastic arts

In Jawa most of the modern production is from Madura. There's still a little bit coming out of Central Jawa, but because the Central Javanese makers are much fewer in number, and because they are more orientated towards traditional methods of production, they simply cannot compete with the Boys from Madura on production costs, and thus price.

David · 2nd March 2013, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Sure.
P. 38: "....one of the simpler forms -the Balinese blade..."

P.39: " The working of Javanese blades is far more complex".

Details of manufacturing processes follow each reference.

Yes Ariel, if you were to quote more than single or partial sentences here and place themin the context of his entire discussion we would see that indeed Frey is referring to the complexity of the pamor work.

ariel · 2nd March 2013, 02:09 PM

Thank you, Alan.
If I understand you correctly, Balinese masters are continuing to manufacture strictly traditional kerises and are aiming at fulfilling limited, but real, local needs, whereas the production of kerises of Javanese style became commercial in nature to the point of creating a center in Madura that is mass-producing "objects of art" and export-type kerises of whatever "Javanese-style" pattern.
That would indeed explain the difference between the availability of Balinese and Javanese kerises on the market. If so, the laws of supply and demand will inevitably stimulate the Balinese masters to follow the suit in the near future :-)

David · 2nd March 2013, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

If I understand you correctly, Balinese masters are continuing to manufacture strictly traditional kerises and are aiming at fulfilling limited, but real, local needs, whereas the production of kerises of Javanese style became commercial in nature to the point of creating a center in Madura that is mass-producing "objects of art" and export-type kerises of whatever "Javanese-style" pattern.
That would indeed explain the difference between the availability of Balinese and Javanese kerises on the market. If so, the laws of supply and demand will inevitably stimulate the Balinese masters to follow the suit in the near future :-)

AFAIK there is very little keris production taking place in Bali. Most of the new blades that we see on the market in the West that are Bali-style are probably also being produced in Madura.
Madura, btw, is usually considered part of East Jawa, even though it is a separate island. As Alan pointed out, the art market for keris is 99% Javanese. So it is a bit off perhaps to view the production of these as "export-type" keris, though certainly a small portion of them do reach that market. The vast majority of keris produced today are for Javanese consumption. I am also not sure that it is correct to suggest that these keris are "mass-produced", at least not in our usual understanding of the term. When you preface "objects of art" with "mass-produced" i can only assume you mean to imply that these contemporary keris are somehow lesser than their antique predecessors in regards to quality and artistic achievement. The use of modern tools does not decrease the quality of these modern keris and in fact some of the technically finest and most artistic keris ever made are being produced through these methods today.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd March 2013, 10:35 PM

Ariel, everything that David has said is correct, but it possibly needs a little bit of expansion.

Firstly, there are a number of ways in which to regard a keris, and in the modern world the esoteric functions of a keris do not necessarily embrace the artistic functions of a keris. Thus, at the present time in Bali we have at least one maker who produces very poor quality keris in the artistic sense, but these keris are highly regarded in the esoteric sense. His production is totally focussed on local consumption.

In the book “Keris Bali Bersejarah” there are 8 present day makers of keris listed. Their production is locally focussed and although I have never purchased a keris from any of them, my understanding is that the price of these current production Bali keris places them well outside what western collectors are prepared to pay.

There is a real need for keris as cultural artifacts in both Bali and Jawa. In both places the keris is still a part of formal dress, and in Bali there are a number of rituals which require the use of a keris.

I cannot emphasise too strongly that the people who buy the product of present day keris makers are for the most part local people, both Javanese and Balinese.

One of the first things that a newcomer to keris culture hears about is the production that takes place in Madura. Your perception of this Madura activity is not unusual amongst western collectors, but is not quite as you may think.

Firstly, the manufacture of keris in the area around Sumenep has been going on for hundreds of years. Madura smiths made for mainland Javanese consumption, and for export to other places in SE Asia from probably the time of Majapahit, and from certainly the time of Mataram. In fact, Madura makers have never really stopped. The keris that they were producing after WWII and prior to the keris revival of the ‘70‘s were pretty rough, very poor quality, but they were still producing when everywhere else had drawn back from production. When the revival got under way the younger generation were inspired to begin production again on a larger scale and to a higher quality.

The keris that the best of the present generation of makers produce are artistically as good or better than anything that has ever been produced. However, the average collector, whether in the western world, or in Indonesia and outside the inner circle, will almost never even get to see this top of the line production. Very often the work of the very best men is spoken for before it is even started, it almost never appears on the open market and the only way to obtain an example of this top quality work is if you have the right connections.

The best of modern production is a very, very long way from what you can find on ebay.It is far from the “mass production of objects of art”. It is the very, very limited production of works of art by highly respected artists and it is very seldom seen on the open market. The work of the makers of Central Jawa who were involved in the beginning of the revival of the ‘70’s now commands four and five figure dollar prices.

Yes, keris of less than excellent quality are also being made in the modern era, but keris of less than excellent quality have always been made. If it was inferior when it was made, the fact that it has a bit of age on it does not magically make it worthwhile. The bare fact of the matter is that most keris in the market place , whether those keris are old or new, are very, very ordinary quality.

This is perfectly understandable as most people cannot afford four and five and even six figure dollar amounts to buy a keris for a social need, such as to wear at a wedding.

So yes, a lot of less than wonderful keris get churned out by the Madura makers, but the market for those keris are the millions upon millions of Javanese men who earn something less than Rp.one million or so a month and who, for example, want their own keris for their wedding, or who wish to give a son a keris.

The Javanese keris trade, whether at the highest level, or right at the bottom, is focussed internally, not directed towards buyers in other countries.

Yes, all keris production in both Bali and Jawa is commercial, and that has been the case for a very long time. The idea of the lone aesthetic sitting on top of a mountain and meditating and fasting for 30 days before he strikes the single monthly blow to forge a keris is totally, totally wrong. In fact, the true “magic” in a keris is of a completely different nature to that which virtually everybody imagines it to be.

In 1812 Raffles noted that the keris in Jawa had become an item of dress rather than a weapon. Keris and other weapons were a major item of export during and after Mataram.

Frankly, I do not expect to see Balinese makers go down the path of bulk production. The Balinese mind-set is not something that can be easily understood by anybody from outside Balinese society and culture. Just because others may think in terms of supply & demand and commercial opportunity, that does not necessarily mean that the members of the Pande clan will try to jump onto this band wagon.

ariel · 3rd March 2013, 02:32 PM

Alan, thank you for your detailed and constructive response.
It seems I might have oversimplified the situation. Still, I am surprised by the paucity of the Balinese vs. Javanese kerises on the market ( and, yes, e-bay is my bottom-feeding domain:-)). Is it then simply a matter of the relatively same percentage of the vast production number of the Javanese vs. smaller number of Balinese kerises that go outside the internal consumption?
And I am still puzzled by your belief that the Balinese masters are unlikely to follow the universal market rules of supply and demand. This would be a unique example of human economy:-) After all, in the era of on-line commerce no mind-set is likely to remain immune to the financial opportunities offered by the Internet. In support of my belief is the vast number of Balinese handles , - very expensive!- that are for sale on e-bay. The blades will surely follow, IMHO.
With best wishes.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd March 2013, 08:10 PM

Ariel, universal market rules only apply to the universe in which any particular market is situated.

The bulk of the Balinese peaople are not situated in that universe.

Your comments desrve a considered response and as soon as I have time I will do my best to provide one.

A. G. Maisey · 14th March 2013, 04:32 AM

Ariel, I promised you that I would try to justify my opinion that Balinese blade makers who are members of the pande clan would be unlikely to attempt to satisfy a market demand outside of Bali for Balinese keris.

I'm currently in Solo, but before I left for here I did try to write an explanation of my opinion for you. I decided not to post it because it was far too long, far too complex and it still did not get anywhere near an adequate explanation.

A few days ago I was Bali.Last Saturday was the day for the Melis ceremony that precedes the Hari Nyepi celebrations. I attended the Melis ceremony that was held on Kuta beach. I estimate that around 70,000 to 100,000 people attended. It was quiet, orderly gathering, it lasted most of the day, people wandered in and out of it, there was no disruption, no unseemly conduct. It was a near to perfect example of the way in which Balinese traditional society functions:- a vast number of people moving as one and in harmony.To move outside this societal matrix essentially divorces a Balinese person from his culture, religion and life purpose.

To justify my opinion given in a previous p[ost, and to make it as short and simple as possible I will offer only this:-

the Balinese are different; pursuit of worldly matters must not interfere with the daily obligations of society and religion.

I suppose that at some time in the distant future Balinese attitudes may change, but as long Balinese society stays more or less as it now is I do not expect to see majority of Balinese members of the Pande Clan behaving in a similar manner to the rest of the world.

An immediate contradiction to what I have just said can be identified:- the owner of the Neka Musuim in Ubud is a member of the Pande Clan, and also an extremely wealthy man who has devoted his considerable intelligence to the accumulation of wealth. However, he seems to have been able to achieve this without interfering with his societal obligations. Most of us do not have a similar capacity. Pak Neka is an exception.

ariel · 15th March 2013, 12:45 AM

Fascinating.... Sounds like the mythical Bali Hai.
What do you attribute it to? Religion? Closeness of the island habitat? Level of westernization/industrialization?

David · 16th March 2013, 12:51 AM

Interesting enough the "mythical" Bali Ha'i is based upon the real island of Ambae (formerly Aoba Island and also known as Leper's Island) located in the Pacific nation of Vanuatu. Michener never actually stepped foot on it, developing it's mythology from afar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bali_Ha'i

A. G. Maisey · 16th March 2013, 07:21 AM

I don't think I can give a short explanation of my opinions on the way in which Balinese society functions. Quite frankly I know a great deal less about Balinese society than I do about Javanese society. Quite a bit has been written on the society in general and on specific aspects of the society. Anybody who is trying to get a slightly better understanding of how the society functions should probably start with Covourrubias and then go to Eisemann (ptobably haven't spelled either of these names correctly but I guess google will sort the spelling for you). The underlying force is religion, but for the traditional Balinese, religion cannot be separated from daily life:- its not something you do to satisfy a requirement, it is how you live your life on a day to day basis. Society, religion, tradition all are woven together in a mesh that incoporates the individual into the weave.

As I said:- they're different.

1st March 2013, 11:31 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kerises: Bali vs. Jawa etc Once again, sorry for my naivete. According to Frey's book, Jawanese kerises are incomparably more complex from the technical point of view than the Balinese ones. If so, why do we see so many modern Jawanese blades and so few Balinese ones on the market?

2nd March 2013, 12:20 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,119	Can you reference the page for that observation? Javanese keris certainly tend to have a greater variety of pamor patterns, if that can be considered as more "complexity".

2nd March 2013, 01:18 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sure. P. 38: "....one of the simpler forms -the Balinese blade..." P.39: " The working of Javanese blades is far more complex". Details of manufacturing processes follow each reference.

2nd March 2013, 05:06 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Possibly Mr.Frey had in mind the variety and complexity of pamor patterns in Javanese blades, as David has suggested, possibly he also had in mind the variety of forms (dhapur) in Javanese keris, compared to Balinese. Balinese blades very often have a very refined execution, even though the actual form may be more simple than the Javanese. Still, Balinese blades and Javanese blades are part of the same base culture, not spinoffs from that culture as are , say, the Peninsula and Bugis keris. Javanese keris developed along more complex lines because of the influence of Islamic metal workers along the north coast, Bali did not receive this influence, thus development in techniques and technology was slower and more limited. Ariel,in respect of your actual question which concerns comparative numbers of recently produced blades to be found in the market place, Bali did not have a revival of keris culture in the 1970's as did Jawa. Dietrich Drescher attempted to revive interest, but it never really got off the ground. Balinese recent keris production just bounced along servicing the local demand for a long time. In "Keris Bali" a lot of modern makers are listed, but their production seems to be very limited and still seems to be focussed on local production. In comparison, Javanese production is focussed not only on local traditional needs, but also on the art market, which is probably 99% Indonesian based. Many people in Jawa regard the Javanese keris, ie, the blade, as the highest expression of the Javanese plastic arts In Jawa most of the modern production is from Madura. There's still a little bit coming out of Central Jawa, but because the Central Javanese makers are much fewer in number, and because they are more orientated towards traditional methods of production, they simply cannot compete with the Boys from Madura on production costs, and thus price.

2nd March 2013, 02:09 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thank you, Alan. If I understand you correctly, Balinese masters are continuing to manufacture strictly traditional kerises and are aiming at fulfilling limited, but real, local needs, whereas the production of kerises of Javanese style became commercial in nature to the point of creating a center in Madura that is mass-producing "objects of art" and export-type kerises of whatever "Javanese-style" pattern. That would indeed explain the difference between the availability of Balinese and Javanese kerises on the market. If so, the laws of supply and demand will inevitably stimulate the Balinese masters to follow the suit in the near future :-)

2nd March 2013, 10:35 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Ariel, everything that David has said is correct, but it possibly needs a little bit of expansion. Firstly, there are a number of ways in which to regard a keris, and in the modern world the esoteric functions of a keris do not necessarily embrace the artistic functions of a keris. Thus, at the present time in Bali we have at least one maker who produces very poor quality keris in the artistic sense, but these keris are highly regarded in the esoteric sense. His production is totally focussed on local consumption. In the book “Keris Bali Bersejarah” there are 8 present day makers of keris listed. Their production is locally focussed and although I have never purchased a keris from any of them, my understanding is that the price of these current production Bali keris places them well outside what western collectors are prepared to pay. There is a real need for keris as cultural artifacts in both Bali and Jawa. In both places the keris is still a part of formal dress, and in Bali there are a number of rituals which require the use of a keris. I cannot emphasise too strongly that the people who buy the product of present day keris makers are for the most part local people, both Javanese and Balinese. One of the first things that a newcomer to keris culture hears about is the production that takes place in Madura. Your perception of this Madura activity is not unusual amongst western collectors, but is not quite as you may think. Firstly, the manufacture of keris in the area around Sumenep has been going on for hundreds of years. Madura smiths made for mainland Javanese consumption, and for export to other places in SE Asia from probably the time of Majapahit, and from certainly the time of Mataram. In fact, Madura makers have never really stopped. The keris that they were producing after WWII and prior to the keris revival of the ‘70‘s were pretty rough, very poor quality, but they were still producing when everywhere else had drawn back from production. When the revival got under way the younger generation were inspired to begin production again on a larger scale and to a higher quality. The keris that the best of the present generation of makers produce are artistically as good or better than anything that has ever been produced. However, the average collector, whether in the western world, or in Indonesia and outside the inner circle, will almost never even get to see this top of the line production. Very often the work of the very best men is spoken for before it is even started, it almost never appears on the open market and the only way to obtain an example of this top quality work is if you have the right connections. The best of modern production is a very, very long way from what you can find on ebay.It is far from the “mass production of objects of art”. It is the very, very limited production of works of art by highly respected artists and it is very seldom seen on the open market. The work of the makers of Central Jawa who were involved in the beginning of the revival of the ‘70’s now commands four and five figure dollar prices. Yes, keris of less than excellent quality are also being made in the modern era, but keris of less than excellent quality have always been made. If it was inferior when it was made, the fact that it has a bit of age on it does not magically make it worthwhile. The bare fact of the matter is that most keris in the market place , whether those keris are old or new, are very, very ordinary quality. This is perfectly understandable as most people cannot afford four and five and even six figure dollar amounts to buy a keris for a social need, such as to wear at a wedding. So yes, a lot of less than wonderful keris get churned out by the Madura makers, but the market for those keris are the millions upon millions of Javanese men who earn something less than Rp.one million or so a month and who, for example, want their own keris for their wedding, or who wish to give a son a keris. The Javanese keris trade, whether at the highest level, or right at the bottom, is focussed internally, not directed towards buyers in other countries. Yes, all keris production in both Bali and Jawa is commercial, and that has been the case for a very long time. The idea of the lone aesthetic sitting on top of a mountain and meditating and fasting for 30 days before he strikes the single monthly blow to forge a keris is totally, totally wrong. In fact, the true “magic” in a keris is of a completely different nature to that which virtually everybody imagines it to be. In 1812 Raffles noted that the keris in Jawa had become an item of dress rather than a weapon. Keris and other weapons were a major item of export during and after Mataram. Frankly, I do not expect to see Balinese makers go down the path of bulk production. The Balinese mind-set is not something that can be easily understood by anybody from outside Balinese society and culture. Just because others may think in terms of supply & demand and commercial opportunity, that does not necessarily mean that the members of the Pande clan will try to jump onto this band wagon.

3rd March 2013, 02:32 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Alan, thank you for your detailed and constructive response. It seems I might have oversimplified the situation. Still, I am surprised by the paucity of the Balinese vs. Javanese kerises on the market ( and, yes, e-bay is my bottom-feeding domain:-)). Is it then simply a matter of the relatively same percentage of the vast production number of the Javanese vs. smaller number of Balinese kerises that go outside the internal consumption? And I am still puzzled by your belief that the Balinese masters are unlikely to follow the universal market rules of supply and demand. This would be a unique example of human economy:-) After all, in the era of on-line commerce no mind-set is likely to remain immune to the financial opportunities offered by the Internet. In support of my belief is the vast number of Balinese handles , - very expensive!- that are for sale on e-bay. The blades will surely follow, IMHO. With best wishes.

3rd March 2013, 08:10 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Ariel, universal market rules only apply to the universe in which any particular market is situated. The bulk of the Balinese peaople are not situated in that universe. Your comments desrve a considered response and as soon as I have time I will do my best to provide one.

14th March 2013, 04:32 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Ariel, I promised you that I would try to justify my opinion that Balinese blade makers who are members of the pande clan would be unlikely to attempt to satisfy a market demand outside of Bali for Balinese keris. I'm currently in Solo, but before I left for here I did try to write an explanation of my opinion for you. I decided not to post it because it was far too long, far too complex and it still did not get anywhere near an adequate explanation. A few days ago I was Bali.Last Saturday was the day for the Melis ceremony that precedes the Hari Nyepi celebrations. I attended the Melis ceremony that was held on Kuta beach. I estimate that around 70,000 to 100,000 people attended. It was quiet, orderly gathering, it lasted most of the day, people wandered in and out of it, there was no disruption, no unseemly conduct. It was a near to perfect example of the way in which Balinese traditional society functions:- a vast number of people moving as one and in harmony.To move outside this societal matrix essentially divorces a Balinese person from his culture, religion and life purpose. To justify my opinion given in a previous p[ost, and to make it as short and simple as possible I will offer only this:- the Balinese are different; pursuit of worldly matters must not interfere with the daily obligations of society and religion. I suppose that at some time in the distant future Balinese attitudes may change, but as long Balinese society stays more or less as it now is I do not expect to see majority of Balinese members of the Pande Clan behaving in a similar manner to the rest of the world. An immediate contradiction to what I have just said can be identified:- the owner of the Neka Musuim in Ubud is a member of the Pande Clan, and also an extremely wealthy man who has devoted his considerable intelligence to the accumulation of wealth. However, he seems to have been able to achieve this without interfering with his societal obligations. Most of us do not have a similar capacity. Pak Neka is an exception.

15th March 2013, 12:45 AM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Fascinating.... Sounds like the mythical Bali Hai. What do you attribute it to? Religion? Closeness of the island habitat? Level of westernization/industrialization?

16th March 2013, 12:51 AM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,119	Interesting enough the "mythical" Bali Ha'i is based upon the real island of Ambae (formerly Aoba Island and also known as Leper's Island) located in the Pacific nation of Vanuatu. Michener never actually stepped foot on it, developing it's mythology from afar. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bali_Ha'i

16th March 2013, 07:21 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	I don't think I can give a short explanation of my opinions on the way in which Balinese society functions. Quite frankly I know a great deal less about Balinese society than I do about Javanese society. Quite a bit has been written on the society in general and on specific aspects of the society. Anybody who is trying to get a slightly better understanding of how the society functions should probably start with Covourrubias and then go to Eisemann (ptobably haven't spelled either of these names correctly but I guess google will sort the spelling for you). The underlying force is religion, but for the traditional Balinese, religion cannot be separated from daily life:- its not something you do to satisfy a requirement, it is how you live your life on a day to day basis. Society, religion, tradition all are woven together in a mesh that incoporates the individual into the weave. As I said:- they're different.