Kris/Sundang just finished on ebay.

[Pukka Bundook]

Hi chaps.

I was watching an "old sword with 22" blade". on ebay.
I didn't buy it, but was rather interested!
As I know nothing of these weapons, I wonder if I might enquire wether this was a good purchase.
The price was very reasonable, I Think!!
It needed a bit of work, but the "Ganjo iras" was very neatly decorated ...to my untrained eye.
The lovely blade decoration of these weapons has me intrigued, So I ask what I should look for, if & when I can afford one!

Here is a pic. of the blade & rough looking hilt;

[David]

Interesting kris, but it looks wholly Moro to me, not of the Indonesian variety. I would also suspect that it is not an Iras blade as i clearly see a line there. Sometimes these lines are etched there in Iras blades to simulate a separate gongo, but my feeling is that is is not the case here.
I'm transferring this to the main forum for discussion.

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

..... but the "Ganjo iras" was very neatly decorated ...to my untrained eye.
The lovely blade decoration of these weapons has me intrigued, So I ask what I should look for, if & when I can afford one!

Hullo everybody,

Firstly, I don't believe the piece to be a Sundang as such. It looks more like a kris from somewhere like Mindanaw.
Secondly, I don't think that it's a "Ganjo iras", as I seem to detect a distinct separation between the blade and the base section.

As to what to look for, that is largely a PERSONAL CHOICE.
I'd tend to examine the blade first. Shaved or beaten into shape? Laminations or not? Damascene pattern or not. If it's got curves, what type (e.g. deep/shallow amplitude, scalloped).
Then I'd investigate the fret-work; what style, how distinct etc.
From there, I'd move to the handle. Scrutinising the fittings/collar, grip & pommel; what materials were used, what decorations etc.
Finally, I'd examine the scabbard.

Best,

[Pukka Bundook]

Thank you for your replies and tips!

May I ask how you rate the fret-work on this one?
To me, it looks like a lot of care was taken in its execution.

Any idea of age?
As I said, I know nothing of these, so am trying to get a feel for them.
I must now go and find out where Mindanaw is!

Re Moro;
The seller had one or two definitely Phillipine pieces for sale also, so it does seem possible this sword came from the same spot.

Any other comments most welcome!!

Thank you again,
Richard.

[Sajen]

Hello Pukka,

have bought some time ago a kris from Mindanao/Philippines by the same seller. Look here:http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12825
He told me that it is from his passed away father's collection.
Agree with you that gangya (fret) area is very nice elaborate. Seems to be a fighting piece with good age and prevalently used. Others with more knowledge will tell you more.

Regards,

Detlef

[Pukka Bundook]

Sajen,

Thank you so much for the reply and link! The comments on the link help such a lot in my undestanding of these pieces.

Thank you again.
Richard.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Sajen,

Thank you so much for the reply and link! The comments on the link help such a lot in my undestanding of these pieces.

Thank you again.
Richard.

Pukka, you are welcome!

[VANDOO]

I BID ON THIS ITEM BUT IT DIDN'T GO HIGHER BECAUSE OF THE SELLERS POOR PICTURE. I WOULD HAVE BID HIGHER IF I HAD BEEN ABLE TO SEE THE FILEWORK AND HANDLE. THIS IS A GOOD OLD UNTOUCHED MORO FIGHTING KRIS SWORD IT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE A PATTERENED BLADE BUT THE WORKMANSHIP IS GOOD AND I SUSPECT IT IS A FOLDED HAND FORGED BLADE WITH VERY SHARP EDGES EVEN AFTER ALL THESE YEARS. IT MAY BE FROM MINDANO ISLAND PHILLIPPINES OR BORNEO, BRUNI OR EVEN MALAYSIA THE MORO WERE PRESENT OR TRAVELED IN ALL AREAS.
THE FILEWORK IS DIFFERENT FROM ANY I HAVE SEEN AND VERY WELL DONE LOOKS A LOT LIKE MALAY WORK SOMEONE GOT A GOOD BUY ON THIS ONE WISH IT HAD BEEN ME.

[Battara]

You are all right in that it is Moro. It is indeed from Mindanao, in fact it is Maranao in origin.

[Pukka Bundook]

Thank you for your replies, Vandoo and Battara.

I felt rather sick, not bidding, as it seemed "right" to me, and I have not seen nicer file-work, but as I am unschooled in these weapons, thought I'd better hold off!

Would the hilt have been better dressed at some time?
The rather plain hilt was what piqued my interest actually,.....Not at all 'touristy'!
Thank you again.
Now I can go away and feel narked with myself for not bidding!

[Sajen]

It is my guess that it isn't the original hilt and maybe a later replacement.
It will come the next chance to get a nice Moro kris for a good price. I know from what I speak!

[Battara]

I agree with Sajen that this work on the hilt is later and the original stuff was stripped.

[kai]

Hello Richard,

and I have not seen nicer file-work, but as I am unschooled in these weapons, thought I'd better hold off!

Actually, this style of "greneng" is not traditional - if you're looking for a typical 19th c. Moro kris, it was good to pass up on this piece IMHO.

While the quality of the file work does look good and the special style is certainly of interest, I'd guess that this is a 20th c. blade. The separation line does look a bit weird to me and I'm far from convinced that this blade really has a seperate gangya rather than an engraved line...

Hilt does look like a makeshift repair, indeed.

Regards,
Kai

[Battara]

I agree with you Kai in that the blade is probably 20c, perhaps 1920s. However, the separation line does not look like the typical engraved line to me. Better close ups of the line might help us solve the problem.

[Pukka Bundook]

Thank you again, for sharing your knowlege and advice so freely.

Reading your replies and the other recent posts on Philippine weaponry
has already opened my eyes to quite a lot!

Thank you, Gentlemen, for your generosity!!

Richard.

[David]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Firstly, I don't believe the piece to be a Sundang as such. It looks more like a kris from somewhere like Mindanaw.
Secondly, I don't think that it's a "Ganjo iras", as I seem to detect a distinct separation between the blade and the base section.

Actually, i have read that in Maranao the "correct" name for a kris with a straight blade is Sundang Espada. If this is correct then it would indeed be far to refer to this Maranao straight kris as a Sundang (as such).
We as Western collectors tend to generalize (or perhaps simplify) our terminology with these weapons, but it is important to remember that each of the Moro tribes have there own unique ways of referring to their weapons and parts of them.
Kai, i'm not really sure what you see that makes you lean towards doubting a separate gangya. I don't think we see enough info in this one image to be clear in either direction.
The hilt may indeed not be original to the blade, but it certainly wasn't originally attached this way. This is an old field repair and what it tells me is that this kris was a "user" and that someone did what they could in order to make it functional quickly.
I'm also not sure what you are implying Kai when you say that this "greneng" is not "traditional". It certainly is unusal, but i have seen other variations on this theme. What "tradition" do you think it comes from?
Does anyone have a link to the original auction? Were there more photos?

[Sajen]

Here the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/Old-sword-wooden...item2eb11dbbb7
Only two pictures more were shown by the auction.

[Rick]

Having seen the piece in its entirety all I can say is !wow! what a beautifully made and proportioned blade !!

The form is close to perfection, IMO .

Now the problem would be whether to leave the old soldier as he is or go full restore ?

I think I would just try to stabilise it were it mine .

The piece speaks for itself just as it is .

[David]

Sorry i missed that one, i may have had a run at it.
Always nice to see the whole piece for over all perspective.
If it were mine i'd have trouble removing the rattan on it since it's such a nice example of a jungle repair and you wouldn't want to lose that history. It would be tough to fully clean the blade with it attached though.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Richard,


Actually, this style of "greneng" is not traditional - if you're looking for a typical 19th c. Moro kris, it was good to pass up on this piece IMHO.

While the quality of the file work does look good and the special style is certainly of interest, I'd guess that this is a 20th c. blade. The separation line does look a bit weird to me and I'm far from convinced that this blade really has a seperate gangya rather than an engraved line...

Hilt does look like a makeshift repair, indeed.

Regards,
Kai

Desperate measures for desperate times, eh ?

Certainly not aimed at the 'pleasure travelers' market .

Make do or do without .

They made do .

Rick

[Rick]

Originally Posted by David

Sorry i missed that one, i may have had a run at it.
Always nice to see the whole piece for over all perspective.
If it were mine i'd have trouble removing the rattan on it since it's such a nice example of a jungle repair and you wouldn't want to lose that history. It would be tough to fully clean the blade with it attached though.

That would be the challenge, David .

The best one could hope for is stabilization, IMO .
Still ...
A bargain for a Moro Collector .

I guess the recession has hit everywhere .

[Battara]

Originally Posted by David

Actually, i have read that in Maranao the "correct" name for a kris with a straight blade is Sundang Espada.

The only problem with this term is that the last word "espada" is Spanish, not Maranao. I have never heard this term before, though sundang would not surprise me.

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Battara

The only problem with this term is that the last word "espada" is Spanish, not Maranao. I have never heard this term before, though sundang would not surprise me.

Am looking at the Maranao-English dictionary that Nonoy Tan lent me.

Can't find the specific term for a straight-blade kris, however. But on a related matter, here are the Maranao terms for 'sword':

Sword: diaoaq, inalongan panampao, karis [i.e., kalis or kris], koiang, ledao, maindan, minar, miros, panangan, pedang, pinotiq, sarab

Sword or fighting knife of Sulu: kalis

Sword or kris with wavy blade: lingiq

Sword used for fighting, has straight edge: kampilan

Sword--card game: ispada

Sword--either wavy or straight blade: sondang

Sword--samurai: pedang a apon [i.e., pedang of the 'Hapon', or Japanese]

Sword--two-bladed and curved along entire length: sikoq

Sword--wooden: kaboran

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

The only problem with this term is that the last word "espada" is Spanish, not Maranao. I have never heard this term before, though sundang would not surprise me.

That may well be so José. I first encountered these tribal language differences on Federico's Moro site... http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...o/diagram.html ... and recently found this on the web. I cannot attest to it's accuracy though

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by David

That may well be so José. I first encountered these tribal language differences on Federico's Moro site... http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...o/diagram.html ... and recently found this on the web. I cannot attest to it's accuracy though

David, thanks for posting the pic. I was actually the one who made that illustration. The references I used were Cato's Moro Swords, and the Summer Institute of Linguistics' (SIL) Tausug-English Dictionary.

One of these days, I'll go down to Maranaw territory and look for a professor who can validate these terminologies. In the meantime, I suppose Cato and SIL are reliable sources. Thus we can rest assured that the terms are ok.