An Old Masai Seme....I'm not so certain

katana · 18th September 2008, 01:08 AM

Hi,
just acquired (but waiting for delivery) this 'Seme' although it has the overall shape and profile of one, it is quite large...blade is 28" long (71cms) OAL is 34" (86cms). The handle is in two sections leather and then the final section is overbound with wire.
The blade is 1cm thick at hilt, so combined with its length, I imagine it's quite 'heafty'. No scabbard, unfortunately to help ID

Has anyone any comments / ideas as to origins or date.
Thank you

Regards David

colin henshaw · 18th September 2008, 09:16 AM

Hi

Unusual - I can't place it exactly. The form looks like an older type of seme, but the hande seems a bit odd, wonder whats under the binding (that part looks modern from the photos). Maybe its from one of the tribes near to the Masai or down into Tanzania ? Look forward to seeing more photos when you get the piece.

Regards

asomotif · 18th September 2008, 12:48 PM

I had a similar seme about 2 years ago.

I believe I also had a thread on that on, so will see if I can find it.
(there it is

) :http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4120

katana · 18th September 2008, 02:28 PM

Thank you Colin and Asomotif for your input

,

according to the posting asomotif 'linked' the dimensions suggest a 'war' sword

. The handle is indeed a puzzle, tha tapering wire covered section, although crude, reminds me of the Omani Kattera. Perhaps the wired section is to provide 'weight' to help balance the blade. Looking at the blade 'tip' (in the pictures) suggests it had been sharpened a number of times.
Can I safely assumed that this is likely a late 19th C to early 20th C (pre 1935 )

This quoted from the same thread....

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomaRana

Manolo,

The seme you posted dates at least to 1935. This is because the development of this type of sword was probably related to the spear and weapons ordinance introduced by the British to quell the "warrior" culture of many tribal groups.

The ban lasted from 1935-1955 and did a great deal of damage to the blacksmithing culture in the region as evidenced by a drop in quality of the blades from the older type.

Kind Regards David

katana · 23rd September 2008, 02:03 PM

The Seme has arrived ...and is better than I thought

Hand forged with a nice tempered blade which is still quite sharp (no evidence of recent honing either) The 'forte' is 6 sided (almost diamond cross section with two of the opposing 'angles' that are flattened 5mm) The blade 'thickness' then gradually decreases as the blade width widens. The last 40% of the blade it's thickness is decreased significantly (as the blade is widened)

The wire used in the handle is cable which has been covered in leather (which follows the 'contours' of the wire below. The tang is slightly exposed at the end.

Although the handle is useable, I can't help feeling that this was likely used two handed by gripping the forte.
There is a nice patina to the blade and although the handle seems to have had a repair...it looks as if this was done quite awhile ago.

Would late 19th C early 20th C be likely?

Please any info / comments greatly appreciated, thankyou

Regards David

katana · 25th September 2008, 07:47 PM

Hi
sorry to 'bump' the thread, but has anyone any idea about this Seme. I still have doubts that this is Masai. Spring's "African arms and armour" has little information, and Stone's " A glossary....arms and armour..." also has only a 'basic' description.

Any further info. would be greatly appreciated, thank you.

Regards David

Tim Simmons · 25th September 2008, 07:53 PM

It might be a Tutsi or Hutu version of what we know as a Seme?

colin henshaw · 25th September 2008, 09:12 PM

Hi David

This type of sword was used by very many tribes and tribal groupings throughout Eastern Africa - very difficult to place exactly without some provenance or collection data. Chris Peers' book "Armies of the Nineteenth Century: Africa", has some good drawings... Looks an old piece to me, but the wire wrapped bit to the handle doesn't seem right, I suspect there was a wooden finial to the handle there originally that had become damaged, and the wire is a later replacement covering.

Regret I cannot be more specific. Regards, Colin

Tim Simmons · 25th September 2008, 09:28 PM

Looking at this closely I am begining to think that the wire may well be original to the making of this piece. As Colin says East Africa is a vast land and artifacts morph over distance. It is not unusual to see the utilisation of European materials to finish objects of all sorts. I assume the wire is sleaved in a form of plastic? The type will help age the piece? I would suggest this is something from the 1930s as RomaRana has already stated. The wire coming from a viechle or some other European manufacture.

katana · 26th September 2008, 01:57 AM

Hi Colin and Tim

,
thank you for your input, the braided wire maybe plastic coated, (looking through a magnifying glass) but of a type that looks 'antiquated' ....if that makes sense ...ie not a modern polymer. But, I feel the handle is foreign to the original blade, the tang being exposed suggests that this was a later repair. The 'patina' of the blade does suggest some age, older, I think, than the 'wire wrap'. I believe had the scabbard been available it would help to ID it's origins more accurately....but am happy to think that this is late 19th C to early 20th C, 'locally' forged in or around East Africa (

) .
It is very nicely forged, has good temper and is, I think, a nice example of an 'older' seme... certainly a weapon ... shame about the fact there is no scabbard...but I am happy , never the less

Regards David

18th September 2008, 01:08 AM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	An Old Masai Seme....I'm not so certain Hi, just acquired (but waiting for delivery) this 'Seme' although it has the overall shape and profile of one, it is quite large...blade is 28" long (71cms) OAL is 34" (86cms). The handle is in two sections leather and then the final section is overbound with wire. The blade is 1cm thick at hilt, so combined with its length, I imagine it's quite 'heafty'. No scabbard, unfortunately to help ID Has anyone any comments / ideas as to origins or date. Thank you Regards David Attached Images

18th September 2008, 12:48 PM	#3
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	I had a similar seme about 2 years ago. I believe I also had a thread on that on, so will see if I can find it. (there it is ) :http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4120 Attached Images

23rd September 2008, 02:03 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	The Seme has arrived ...and is better than I thought Hand forged with a nice tempered blade which is still quite sharp (no evidence of recent honing either) The 'forte' is 6 sided (almost diamond cross section with two of the opposing 'angles' that are flattened 5mm) The blade 'thickness' then gradually decreases as the blade width widens. The last 40% of the blade it's thickness is decreased significantly (as the blade is widened) The wire used in the handle is cable which has been covered in leather (which follows the 'contours' of the wire below. The tang is slightly exposed at the end. Although the handle is useable, I can't help feeling that this was likely used two handed by gripping the forte. There is a nice patina to the blade and although the handle seems to have had a repair...it looks as if this was done quite awhile ago. Would late 19th C early 20th C be likely? Please any info / comments greatly appreciated, thankyou Regards David Attached Images

25th September 2008, 09:28 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Looking at this closely I am begining to think that the wire may well be original to the making of this piece. As Colin says East Africa is a vast land and artifacts morph over distance. It is not unusual to see the utilisation of European materials to finish objects of all sorts. I assume the wire is sleaved in a form of plastic? The type will help age the piece? I would suggest this is something from the 1930s as RomaRana has already stated. The wire coming from a viechle or some other European manufacture. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 25th September 2008 at 09:33 PM. Reason: spelling spelling!!

18th September 2008, 09:16 AM	#2
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Unusual - I can't place it exactly. The form looks like an older type of seme, but the hande seems a bit odd, wonder whats under the binding (that part looks modern from the photos). Maybe its from one of the tribes near to the Masai or down into Tanzania ? Look forward to seeing more photos when you get the piece. Regards

25th September 2008, 07:47 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi sorry to 'bump' the thread, but has anyone any idea about this Seme. I still have doubts that this is Masai. Spring's "African arms and armour" has little information, and Stone's " A glossary....arms and armour..." also has only a 'basic' description. Any further info. would be greatly appreciated, thank you. Regards David

25th September 2008, 07:53 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	It might be a Tutsi or Hutu version of what we know as a Seme?

25th September 2008, 09:12 PM	#8
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi David This type of sword was used by very many tribes and tribal groupings throughout Eastern Africa - very difficult to place exactly without some provenance or collection data. Chris Peers' book "Armies of the Nineteenth Century: Africa", has some good drawings... Looks an old piece to me, but the wire wrapped bit to the handle doesn't seem right, I suspect there was a wooden finial to the handle there originally that had become damaged, and the wire is a later replacement covering. Regret I cannot be more specific. Regards, Colin

26th September 2008, 01:57 AM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Colin and Tim , thank you for your input, the braided wire maybe plastic coated, (looking through a magnifying glass) but of a type that looks 'antiquated' ....if that makes sense ...ie not a modern polymer. But, I feel the handle is foreign to the original blade, the tang being exposed suggests that this was a later repair. The 'patina' of the blade does suggest some age, older, I think, than the 'wire wrap'. I believe had the scabbard been available it would help to ID it's origins more accurately....but am happy to think that this is late 19th C to early 20th C, 'locally' forged in or around East Africa ( ) . It is very nicely forged, has good temper and is, I think, a nice example of an 'older' seme... certainly a weapon ... shame about the fact there is no scabbard...but I am happy , never the less Regards David