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#1 |
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Javanese?!
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#2 |
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Clever carving, but not a keris.
Art or maybe craft? Yes. Skillful work? Yes. A keris? No. |
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#3 | |
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#4 |
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Alan, not to be horribly ignorant, but is it the fact that it was not made in a traditional laminated fashion that makes this not a keris?
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#5 | |
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The one in the photo is not a weapon or a dagger as it won't be able to stab anything without bending or even breaking. However, it may be called "decorative keris"... I believe. |
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#6 |
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Battara, this question of yours is a horribly tricky one to answer, and it is something that keris people have debated for a very long time:-
what is a keris? For me, it comes down to something that is keris-like needing to satisfy a few cultural requirements, before I am able to accept that I'm looking at a keris. Other people who are very knowledgeable in the field of keris have various other requirements that sometimes relate to the purely physical appearance:- some will say that it must be asymmetric, others that it must have a recognisable gandhik, others that it must be able to be interpreted as a Gunungan, others (the real sticklers) that it must be in compliance with a known pakem. With this object under discussion, the things that make it impossible for me to accept this as a keris are principally rooted in the design ethic which has no place in Javanese ornamental design, yet, if we were to get rid of all the out-of-place ornamentation, and fill in the holes, we would have a Javanese keris. All the piercing in the sorsoran is strongly reminiscent of one of the things that used to be done with poor quality keris to make them more saleable. I don't know where the craftsman drew his inspiration from, but the designs used look like something between a child's version of "Jack the Dragon Slayer", and a Chinese nightmare. The design by any Javanese standard is appalling. Absolutely hideous. But it is very clever work, well executed. Then we have the consideration of the usefulness of this keris. These days a keris in Jawa is mostly viewed as an item of dress. I most sincerely doubt that any Javanese gentlemen with whom I am acquainted would be prepared to wear this keris under any circumstances. If the blade were to be seen he'd be too embarrassed to show his face in polite society ever again. Then again, it would be useless as a weapon --- except maybe to wave at the kids stealing my fruit and cause them nightmares. Nope this object is purely and simply a piece of canvas, its purpose is to permit the craftsman to display his skill, which is considerable. But he needs to go back to school and take a "Keris 101" course. |
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#7 | |
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![]() I can even imagine the kids running in horror and being haunted by the horrible elephant-headed dragono-hydra sireno-garuda (please correct me if I didn't name the beast/beasts correctly). ![]() But who are we to criticize?! Maybe the author had a harsh childhood and took the opportunity to express in iron the sum of his childhood fears. ![]() PS: Yet, I like this carving! ![]() Last edited by mariusgmioc; 19th March 2016 at 06:44 PM. |
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#8 |
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Marius, I believe I am correct when I say that this object was intended as a work of art, or craft.
Throughout history, even the very greatest artists and craftsmen have had their work criticised. It is very probably a disservice to the world at large for a person who has the background, knowledge and experience to feel confident in criticism of the work of others, not to level criticism, praise or comment where this is warranted. So, when you ask the question:- "who are we to criticise?", I believe that there are those amongst us who do have the requisite background, knowledge and experience to make comment, praise or criticism in respect of items posted to this Forum. In fact, very often items are posted with the express request for comment. Of course, sometimes some objects for which an opinion is requested are beyond --- often far beyond --- the remote possibility of comment, and these objects do not receive any comment, criticism or praise. In respect of this dragon object there is an even balance of praise and criticism:- on the one hand the craftsmanship is quite acceptable, not yet brilliant, but pretty good just the same, however the craftsman who produced it made absolutely no attempt to work within the lexicon of Javanese art, and if he did indeed have any understanding of the cultural position of the keris, he certainly did not let this interfere with what he produced. |
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#9 | |
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The ivory planar hilt, on the other hand, seems quite nice. ![]() |
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#10 | |
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#11 |
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I am very new at collecting kerises and definitely quite ignorant with respect to Indonesian culture. So, I posted photos of this keris as I am trying to learn more and as I have become aware that this is not really the weapon a keris should be.
Thank you for your comments! ![]() PS: I also like the ivory hilt a lot. To me it appears to be in strong contrast to the blade. PPS: Like the carvings too! I find the loop of the tail of the snake particularly interesting. But I am still fighting with the right name of the beast/beasts. ![]() |
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#12 | |
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As for the correct name of the beastie(s) on this keris Marius, you may find yourself "fighting" for a long time to come up with a correct name. This is all the makers fantasy for the most part, taking pieces of cultural mythologies and stitching them together for his own personal effect. It is the kind of thing that may have been done to attract Western buyers who may not no better, but as Alan has already pointed out, no self-respecting Javanese would be caught dead wearing such a blade, no matter how well done the carvings might be. It is simply not possible to obtain any reasonable understanding of the keris without also studying the Indonesian cultures which spawned it. ![]() |
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#13 | |
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![]() Still I wonder which would be more accurate: Ganesho-naga Garuda or Garudo-naga Ganesha?! But it's the siren that baffles me... ![]() Now that's an existential dilemma! ![]() Last edited by mariusgmioc; 20th March 2016 at 10:29 PM. |
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#14 |
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Thank you Alan.
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#15 | ||
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But this is accidental. It isn't made for use as a weapon. As you said, Quote:
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#16 | |
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This blade will bend or break if it is used as a weapon. Roland |
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#17 | |
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It isn't as strong as the uncarved blade would have been, but looks sufficient. |
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#18 | |
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However, it might work only for a perfectly directed stabbing blow as any slight lateral inclination would most likely make the blade bend or break sideways. |
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#19 |
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Hum, is this subject worth so many posts? It looks a bit irrelevant to me...
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#20 | |
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#21 | |
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