Philippine Kris or Keris

[aerosick]

Hello from a new Member. I got this Kris at an auction here in the USA that had museum artifacts for sale. I'm trying to get the museum's contact information and see if they have the background history records of this Kris. I only have the 2 photos from the auction, but I will be getting more when the Kris arrives at my house.

All comments will be well appreciated. Any thoughts as to the age and area of origin?

Philippine Kris

22" serpentine blade with traditional notched carving at base. Wire-wrapped wooden grip with engraved copper ferrules. Nickel-plated steel pommel. Wooden scabbard with rawhide wraps. Museum inventory numbers painted on throat of scabbard.

Condition: Good. Showing wear and age patina overall.

Thanks,

Billy

[Rick]

Welcome aboard, Billy .

Need closeups please .

Is the Kakatua solid metal ?

First impression I get is Sulu origin .

Nice .....

[Gavin Nugent]

Congrats,

I good looking nice complete piece.

I was going to bid on this piece but I fell asleep (time differences).

Is it silver or nickel plated as the auction house noted?

Gav

[aerosick]

The auction was 3 days ago. I have not received an Invoice yet, so I am not sure when my Kris will arrive. When it does I hope I can provide more details and (of course) close-up photos.

Billy

[Battara]

The blade does look Sulu.

[Rick]

Looking forward to your pictures; don't forget a closeup of the sorsoran, or base of the blade .

I wonder if the other color on the hilt may be Swassa .

It may even have a core; include a closeup of the blade too !!

This one looks nice .

Rick

[Battara]

O yes, I forgot - I doubt that the pommel is solid - it would be too heavy!

[aerosick]

I got my Kris yesterday! I will start with this Post on the blade. Forgive me if I butcher the different names of the parts, but this is my 1st genuine (I believe) Kris. I go to the Philippines at least yearly and I've seen many "tourist" Kris for sale, but this is my 1st experience holding one. I will refer to the Left and Right sides looking down towards the tip while holding it.

For those of you that want to jump ahead, I have 45 photos here: http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c119/aerosick/Kris/

Measurements and Details:

The laminated (?) blade is a fully waved with 13 waves.

Has a talisman chiseled into the blade.

Total Weight of Kris and Scabbard = 2 lbs 1 oz ~ 936 grams

Weight of Kris = 1 lb 5 oz ~ 595 grams

Weight of Scabbard = 12 oz ~ 340 grams

Overall Length = 27.625” ~ 700 mm

Length of Blade = 22” ~ 560 mm

Width of Blade at Balance (4.25” ~ 108 mm below Guard) = 1.4” ~ 36 mm

Depth of Blade at Balance = 0.2” ~ 5 mm

Hilt Length = 5.625” ~ 140 mm

Width of Guard (Gangya) = 4.25” ~ 108 mm

Left Side



Right Side



Left Top



Right Top

[David]

Hey Billy. Nice to see you on this forum. I think you might get some more responses here.
So, have you tested the pommel material yet? Some close-ups of the hilt might be good. I also wonder if the ferrule might be suasa (a low carat gold with a lot of copper in it) instead of copper.
How well does the blade fit into the scabbard? Is it well fitted around the mouth?

[aerosick]

Originally Posted by David

Hey Billy. Nice to see you on this forum. I think you might get some more responses here.
So, have you tested the pommel material yet? Some close-ups of the hilt might be good. I also wonder if the ferrule might be suasa (a low carat gold with a lot of copper in it) instead of copper.
How well does the blade fit into the scabbard? Is it well fitted around the mouth?

David,

I have not tested the pommel material yet. I'm going slow and need to learn more about the testing.

The blade fits the scabbard very well around the mouth and also at the bottom. The mouth of the scabbard where the long end of Gangya sits shows that maybe the tip of the Gangya might have broken off. I will take more photos tomorrow in good light.

[aerosick]

Originally Posted by David

Some close-ups of the hilt might be good.

David,

The silver and copper (my guess so far) braided wires have just a few broken spots. The copper wire is pliable. You can see the museum's tape on it. The lower tape has their record number 8642.L and the scabbard has the number 8641.L.

[Rick]

This one may have a twist core .
I believe it is likely pre 20th C.

Just an observation though ....
There's something funny about the tip .

Possibly it has been reshaped during it's working life ?
A possibility with an old blade .
I don't believe that this is its first hilting .

Nice .

[aerosick]

The Gangya (guard) looks to be a separate piece, not part of the blade. It has a single clamp (baca-baca).

[aerosick]

Originally Posted by Rick

Just an observation .
There's something funny about the tip .
Possibly it has been reshaped during it's working life ?

Rick,

Edit: The scabbard could have been made later to fit the blade. Billy

The pattern in the blade seems to follow the tip. Should the tip be more rounded as a "slasher", not a "stabbing" blade? The tip fits snug in the scabbard's hollowed out tip area. (That photo is in an earlier Post of mine)

Billy

[Rick]

See my edit in the post above .

Here is a blade that I think may be from the same time frame as yours .
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...1/160-rb3a.jpg

[aerosick]

Originally Posted by Rick

See my edit in the post above .

Here is a blade that I think may be from the same time frame as yours .
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...1/160-rb3a.jpg

Yes it does look like the same tip! I will Post about the cockatua pommel later.

Billy

[Rick]

Indeed; but compare the distance between the engraving and the point . Compare the point shape with your example .
Check the rest of the krisses on the site also .

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...nes.swords.htm

Your's is an old blade; I'm fairly certain of that .
It may even have a twist core .

Nothing wrong with keeping an old warrior functional .
If the point was modified it was long ago I figure .

[aerosick]

Originally Posted by Rick

Indeed; but compare the distance between the engraving and the point . Compare the point shape with your example .
Check the rest of the krisses on the site also .

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...nes.swords.htm

Your's is an old blade; I'm fairly certain of that .
It may even have a twist core .

Nothing wrong with keeping an old warrior functional .
If the point was modified it was long ago I figure .

I've bookmarked that and I keep looking and looking.

Can you point me to a reference on "twist core" versus other forge techniques? Is this where they would twist the metal billets? Does this make it rarer?

Thanks,

Billy

[Battara]

I looked at the pictures in your link and compared the copper wire and nails to the top and bottom chased okired pieces. I think the top and bottom pieces are indeed swassa.

The place to test them would be at a jewelers (besides me).

Also the blade is probably older than the hilt. Not unusual.

[aerosick]

In a small hole that didn't show well in the photos I can almost see wood under where the cockatua joins the hilt.

Could the cockatua be silver or a mix?

Do you think that the cockatua is small or medium size?

Is this a shape found in pre-20th Century?

Billy

[aerosick]

Originally Posted by Battara

I looked at the pictures in your link and compared the copper wire and nails to the top and bottom chased okired pieces. I think the top and bottom pieces are indeed swassa.

The place to test them would be at a jewelers (besides me).

Also the blade is probably older than the hilt. Not unusual.

Thanks for this tip. I will try a jeweler next.

Billy

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

I looked at the pictures in your link and compared the copper wire and nails to the top and bottom chased okired pieces. I think the top and bottom pieces are indeed swassa.

Yep, that would be my guess as well, though it's hard to tell just from an internet photo. I also think the pommel will turn out to be silver.
You can easily purchase silver test solution. Test for gold content might require a jeweler.

[Battara]

I would guess from the pictures that the pommel would be a coin silver from the looks in the pictures. IT looks large but right for a pre-20th century piece.

[aerosick]

Originally Posted by Battara

I would guess from the pictures that the pommel would be a coin silver from the looks in the pictures. IT looks large but right for a pre-20th century piece.

Measurements of the pommel (cockatua?):

From long end of Guard (Gangya) to the top of the head = 5.32” ~ 13.5 cm

From Underside of Cockatua on Wide Side to Guard (Gangya) = 4.55” ~ 11.56 cm

From Underside of Cockatua on Narrow Side to Guard (Gangya) = 3.22” ~ 8.18

Rectangular beak Height = 1.05” ~ 2.67 cm

Width:

Top Across Widest Area = 0.78” ~ 1.98 cm

Bottom Across Widest Area = 0.62” ~ 1.57 cm

Widest area of the Cockatua is at the eyes = 1.83” ~ 4.65 cm

Billy

[Rick]

I think this pommel would qualify as danganan style in size according to Cato's Moro Swords fig. 45 pg 74 .

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Rick

I think this pommel would qualify as danganan style in size according to Cato's Moro Swords fig. 45 pg 74 .

"You are correct sir!"

[aerosick]

I see where the pommel is more in the shape of the sarimanok bird rather than the cockatua. My wife is originally from Cebu, Philippines. I asked her if she had ever heard of the mythical "sarimanok" bird. She said "Sure! It's the Logo of a Philippine TV Network"!

Billy

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by aerosick

..... cockatua. ..... "sarimanok" bird.

Hullo Billy,

- The original meaning of 'sarimanok' was 'essentially/fundamentally bird', referring to the pommel's general shape.

- As for 'cockatua', the original meaning was 'spiny parrot', referring to the head-plumage, which resembles spines/spikes.

Best,

[aerosick]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo Billy,

- The original meaning of 'sarimanok' was 'essentially/fundamentally bird', referring to the pommel's general shape.

- As for 'cockatua', the original meaning was 'spiny parrot', referring to the head-plumage, which resembles spines/spikes.

Best,

That makes a clearer picture in my old head. I'm learning more and more every day here.

Thanks!

Billy

[aerosick]

test uploaded photo re-sized to 320 pixels