ID for this African dagger + sword set

thinreadline · 14th January 2012, 07:54 PM

Again from my heap which I am sorting , is this set. Although the scabbards are really well made the blade ( at least of the dagger ) is very poor quality . I assume these are tourist stuff perhaps from somewhere in Africa, but seek the opinions of members. The short sword is currently stuck fast in the scabbard .. any tips on how to ease it out ?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 14th January 2012, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinreadline

Again from my heap which I am sorting , is this set. Although the scabbards are really well made the blade ( at least of the dagger ) is very poor quality . I assume these are tourist stuff perhaps from somewhere in Africa, but seek the opinions of members. The short sword is currently stuck fast in the scabbard .. any tips on how to ease it out ?

Salaams thinredline.. Lovely leather. Nice weapons totally out of my area ... so cannot comment on the tourist idea... Iain will know... Loose it up with a little olive oil I reckon.. that will feed the leather as well. Other leather products on the closed thread on restoration. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

katana · 14th January 2012, 08:49 PM

Hi,
unfortunately tourist bring backs .....used to appear on eBay fairly regularly.

Regards David

thinreadline · 14th January 2012, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams thinredline.. Lovely leather. Nice weapons totally out of my area ... so cannot comment on the tourist idea... Iain will know... Loose it up with a little olive oil I reckon.. that will feed the leather as well. Other leather products on the closed thread on restoration. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

As always great thanks for your suggestions Ibrahiim
Richmond

thinreadline · 14th January 2012, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi,
unfortunately tourist bring backs .....used to appear on eBay fairly regularly.

Regards David

Ah well , as I thought ... but from where ??
Richmond

Jim McDougall · 14th January 2012, 10:27 PM

The leatherwork looks Manding Richmond, and these are Saharan, though as noted commercial items so produced with Berber and Tuareg concepts along with the reflected motif. I have always thought Manding leatherwork extremely handsomely done so these are pretty attractive. Interesting to see the bulb on the end of the scabbard. On janbiyyas I believe this is termed the 'thum' (=garlic bulb in Arabic) as described in references I have seen.

All the best,
Jim

Dom · 15th January 2012, 12:45 AM

Good evening
this production it's come from North Niger (may be Agadez), from Berber ethnic tribes for instance; Tuareg
if somebody said ... north Mali ... could be also, as per as the Tuareg tribes are split into at least 5 countries
anyway, 20th century craft (good craft)

à +

Dom

regihis · 15th January 2012, 02:00 AM

TUAREG DAGGER FOR TOURISTS

katana · 15th January 2012, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinreadline

Ah well , as I thought ... but from where ??
Richmond

Hi Richmond,
nearly all the ebay listings stated Toureg, these do seem to vary in quality but believe that this type/style is not a copy of a genuine sword form (of the area) but produced purely for the tourist market.

Regards David

thinreadline · 15th January 2012, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Richmond,
nearly all the ebay listings stated Toureg, these do seem to vary in quality but believe that this type/style is not a copy of a genuine sword form (of the area) but produced purely for the tourist market.

Regards David

Appreciated David , thanks... of course we in England, for some bizarre reason , dont get to see edged weapons on ebay ! And this is ebay's doing, it has nothing to do with British law ...VERY irritating !

thinreadline · 15th January 2012, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Good evening
this production it's come from North Niger (may be Agadez), from Berber ethnic tribes for instance; Tuareg
if somebody said ... north Mali ... could be also, as per as the Tuareg tribes are split into at least 5 countries
anyway, 20th century craft (good craft)

à +

Dom

Thanks that very interesting , beyond Africa I had no ideas at all..

thinreadline · 15th January 2012, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The leatherwork looks Manding Richmond, and these are Saharan, though as noted commercial items so produced with Berber and Tuareg concepts along with the reflected motif. I have always thought Manding leatherwork extremely handsomely done so these are pretty attractive. Interesting to see the bulb on the end of the scabbard. On janbiyyas I believe this is termed the 'thum' (=garlic bulb in Arabic) as described in references I have seen.

All the best,
Jim

Thanks Jim .. very useful ... like the garlic bulb bit ... appeals to me as a biologist working in horticulture !
Richmond

Jim McDougall · 15th January 2012, 12:09 PM

As always my pleasure Richmond. Your note on your vocation is interesting too, that must be absolutely fascinating work! With that I would note that among the many dynamics of the decoration and motif on ethnographic edged weapons, one of the most prevalent is that of various floral motif as well as certain botanicals.
One of the most intriguing has been the area which Jens has fielded for some years now, the symbolism present in the types of flowers represented in the motif on tulwar decoration. We know that the Mughals were pretty much obsessed with gardens, and that various rulers chose particular flowers for the leitmotif of their dynasty. If I recall correctly Shah Jahan favored the tulip. As to the other examples such as lilies, and of course the lotus, which was used widely throughout Asia as well as the chrysanthemum much of the symbolism is at this point I believe speculative, but compelling.

All part of what makes the study of ethnographic weapons so entirely fascinating!!! Thanks again for sharing all of these weapons!

All the best,
Jim

Iain · 15th January 2012, 01:03 PM

Just to confirm what others have already said, these are modern tourist pieces from the Tuareg. The style is not particularly historical and I think was probably engineered mainly to show off the leather working skills of the artisans. The blades are usually from scrap steel and not forged.

A few other patterns of tourist swords exist most with these pointed tapering blades, some with very elaborate scabbards and multiple small knives attached.

thinreadline · 15th January 2012, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Just to confirm what others have already said, these are modern tourist pieces from the Tuareg. The style is not particularly historical and I think was probably engineered mainly to show off the leather working skills of the artisans. The blades are usually from scrap steel and not forged.

A few other patterns of tourist swords exist most with these pointed tapering blades, some with very elaborate scabbards and multiple small knives attached.

Thanks Iain ... yes the leatherwork is superb but the blades are really crude.
Cheers
Richmond

katana · 15th January 2012, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinreadline

Appreciated David , thanks... of course we in England, for some bizarre reason , dont get to see edged weapons on ebay ! And this is ebay's doing, it has nothing to do with British law ...VERY irritating !

Hi Richmond,
being in the UK myself....I am also a 'victim' of eBay's ridiculous policy.....Irritating is, I feel, an understatement

I have contacted them several times in an effort to get them to review the 'blanket ban' on knife sales ....so far no reply

All the best
David

thinreadline · 15th January 2012, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Richmond,
being in the UK myself....I am also a 'victim' of eBay's ridiculous policy.....Irritating is, I feel, an understatement

I have contacted them several times in an effort to get them to review the 'blanket ban' on knife sales ....so far no reply

All the best
David

Well done David, I will also have a go at them . It just makes no sense .
Richmond

14th January 2012, 07:54 PM	#1
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	ID for this African dagger + sword set Again from my heap which I am sorting , is this set. Although the scabbards are really well made the blade ( at least of the dagger ) is very poor quality . I assume these are tourist stuff perhaps from somewhere in Africa, but seek the opinions of members. The short sword is currently stuck fast in the scabbard .. any tips on how to ease it out ? Attached Images

14th January 2012, 08:49 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi, unfortunately tourist bring backs .....used to appear on eBay fairly regularly. Regards David

14th January 2012, 10:27 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	The leatherwork looks Manding Richmond, and these are Saharan, though as noted commercial items so produced with Berber and Tuareg concepts along with the reflected motif. I have always thought Manding leatherwork extremely handsomely done so these are pretty attractive. Interesting to see the bulb on the end of the scabbard. On janbiyyas I believe this is termed the 'thum' (=garlic bulb in Arabic) as described in references I have seen. All the best, Jim

15th January 2012, 12:45 AM	#7
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Good evening this production it's come from North Niger (may be Agadez), from Berber ethnic tribes for instance; Tuareg if somebody said ... north Mali ... could be also, as per as the Tuareg tribes are split into at least 5 countries anyway, 20th century craft (good craft) à + Dom

15th January 2012, 02:00 AM	#8
regihis Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 39	TUAREG DAGGER FOR TOURISTS

15th January 2012, 12:09 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	As always my pleasure Richmond. Your note on your vocation is interesting too, that must be absolutely fascinating work! With that I would note that among the many dynamics of the decoration and motif on ethnographic edged weapons, one of the most prevalent is that of various floral motif as well as certain botanicals. One of the most intriguing has been the area which Jens has fielded for some years now, the symbolism present in the types of flowers represented in the motif on tulwar decoration. We know that the Mughals were pretty much obsessed with gardens, and that various rulers chose particular flowers for the leitmotif of their dynasty. If I recall correctly Shah Jahan favored the tulip. As to the other examples such as lilies, and of course the lotus, which was used widely throughout Asia as well as the chrysanthemum much of the symbolism is at this point I believe speculative, but compelling. All part of what makes the study of ethnographic weapons so entirely fascinating!!! Thanks again for sharing all of these weapons! All the best, Jim

15th January 2012, 01:03 PM	#14
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Just to confirm what others have already said, these are modern tourist pieces from the Tuareg. The style is not particularly historical and I think was probably engineered mainly to show off the leather working skills of the artisans. The blades are usually from scrap steel and not forged. A few other patterns of tourist swords exist most with these pointed tapering blades, some with very elaborate scabbards and multiple small knives attached.