New Gunong

[Robert]

Well, the wife has been at it again. She found this on epray and worked out a deal with its owner and now it has been added to my collection. It arrived today so I thought that I would show a few pictures of it for any comments on age or anything else (like if this is a tourist piece or not) that you would like to add.
The hilt I believe is ivory with what I believe to be swasa fittings while the guard is a combination of an engraved gold plated copper plate and an engraved silver plated copper plate. The scabbard is covered in decorative gold plated copper sheets and bands. Total length of the dagger itself is 12-7/8 inches with a 7-1/4 inch engraved laminated blade. My thanks in advance for any comments or information that anyone would like to offer.

Robert

P.S.
Just to make things a little clearer, the "plating" on the scabbard is more like gilding than actual plating.

[migueldiaz]

Don't know much about gunongs but I found this in Federico Malibago's webpages on Moro swords:

"Gunong hilts are what distinguish gunongs most from other Moro weapons. Many associate the bulbous pistol grip style pommel, which is often at extreme near right angles to the hilt proper, as being the traditional gunong hilt. However, truly old gunongs feature a straighter hilt, as can be seen in the related picture of old gunongs. At some point between the turn of the century and the 1930s, gunong hilts gradually changed into the more familiar pistol grip. In this time period as well, gunongs start to appear made with much more extravagant fittings and materials. These newer gunongs often featuring beautifully chased bands on their scabbards, with conspicuous Western style belt clips on the top most band. Also, guards start to appear with more frequency, as well as hilts featuring socketed bulbed ferrules that connect to the bulbous pommel ...

"As to identifying the age of newer gunongs, one must rely on looking at such logical identifying features such as material usage, construction method, etc… The usage of German silver, and aluminum become much more prevalent, like with many Moro swords, after WWII. One piece construction of ferrules and other fittings, versus soldering, also becomes more prevalent after WWII as metal tubing becomes more common in the area in such dubious forms as shell casings. With kris variants one must look at the shape of the luks. Like their larger sword counterparts, more modern tourist gunong blades have much more angular luks. Thinner blades, are also more common on newer pieces. Also newer gunongs tend to be much larger than older pieces, with some pieces verging on sword like proportions. This author personally owns a modern tourist gunong that is over 2 ft in size. Ironically, some of the best Moro chasing/repousse this author has seen have been on newer, often tourist gunongs. Often these newer gunongs also feature either an inlay down the blade consisting of copper, brass, or nickel. It is my personal feeling that many of the newer gunongs are prime examples of Moro craftsmanship, and should be cherished as highly as their plainer older counterparts. However one must take caution to consider these more modern pieces for what they are, modern expressions of traditional art, and if the term applies, sometimes a tourist pieces.

Hence it appears that the subject gunong is a pre-WW2 one.

Then we also see gunongs in Krieger's familiar 1926 publication of Phil. edged weapons, which plate below has this caption:

"Plate 13 -- Hand weapons for cutting, piercing, and stabbing: Knives and daggers. No. 1. Dagger; triangular sectioned, curved, and pointed blade; single cutting edge; carved wood handle. Quinapundar, Samar Island. 2. Dagger "bala-rao"; hastate shape double-edged blade; handle provided with a peculiar finger-fitting grip consisting of extended tang and two horns; silver ferrule at center. Chief defense weapon of the Mandayan, southeastern Mindanao. 3. Woman's knife. Blade curved, designed for striking a slanting blow. Bagobo, southeastern Mindanao. 4. Plain dirk-dagger having curved blade, ferruled wooden handle, and circular guard. Moro, Mindanao. 5. Serpentine Malay dagger; grotesque dugong ivory carving on hilt. Collected by the United States exploring expedition, 1838-1842, under Admiral Wilkes. 6. Malay dagger; curved wooden pistol shape hilt; characteristic serpentine figure carving; straight-edged blade. Wilkes exploring expedition. 7. Serpentine kris-dagger; plain horn handle; engraved circular silver guard and ferrule. Moro, Mindanao. 8. Malay dagger; laminated blade; figured and carved handle of wood. Dyak, Pasir River, southeast Borneo. 9. Punal de kris; blade chased on surface section near handle; wood handle set in socketed brass ferrule. Moro, Mindanao. 10. Dagger; curved, double-edged blade; curved plain wood handle. Moro, Mindanao. 11. Dagger having saberlike blade; metal guard provided with volute tips; carved wood handle; blade chased and inlaid with soft metal at back. Moro, Jolo. 12. Dagger; serpentine blade; metal cross guard; spiral fluted grip of Camagon wood. 13. "Insurrecto" sword-dagger chased blade, pointed and double edged; cross guard; horn handle inlaid with shell mosaic; symbolically figured pommel."

Hope this helps somehow

[Battara]

One caveat to Federico's analysis. The blade appears to me to be a little later, say 1950. I may be wrong, but I have seen the majority of these types of blades as post-WWII. The okir is Maranao and that is still being made today in Marawi City on scabbards.

[migueldiaz]

Hi Jose. It looks like you have a point

Because in Krieger's 1926 examples of gunongs above (i.e., nos. 4, 7, 9, & 10), the hilts are not the pistol grip type yet. Thus the pistol grip may have come out more starting after WW2 as you said.

Thanks.

[Robert]

Hello Lorenz and thank you for all the information and the links to Federico Malibago's web site. It seems as dating these can be just a bit tricky. On the shape of the hilt he says "At some point between the turn of the century and the 1930s, gunong hilts gradually changed into the more familiar pistol grip." Then I found this on the same site. http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...es/gunong.html Which he dates to the late 19th century. I know that the blade shape is different from the one I have posted but the hilt is quite similar in style.

Jose, thank you for your information as well as I really appreciate all the help that I can get even if it is not what I would like to hear. At the same time on Federico's site I also found this http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/megunong.html that has the same blade style as mine which he dates to the 1930's because of the fact that "the fittings are all soldered and not of common post WWII materials." The one I have posted it made of copper and what I believe to be swasa. I really need to get this tested to find out for sure. It is not the brass that would be more common after WWII. Also all the seems on the scabbard cover and the hilt fittings are all soldered on mine. There is not one piece of tubing used on it anywhere. One more point of interest is that this piece has a laminated blade and most of the post WWII blades that I have seen are made of monosteel. I will let the experts decide on the dating of this as I have no knowledge of these what so ever.
Thank you both again and also Federico for all your help.

Robert

[migueldiaz]

Thanks Robert for those links (and the pic of Jose's gunongs). Didn't see those webpages before.

[Sajen]

Hello Robert,

equal from which time this gunong, it is very very nice and congrats again that you have such a wife!

I have personally my problems to believe that a gunong with ivory pommel is from the time after WW2.

Regards,

Detlef

[Battara]

Well if it is a laminated blade, then that changes things a little...........

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

I have personally my problems to believe that a gunong with ivory pommel is from the time after WW2.

Why is that Detlef. There are many elaborate gunongs that date post WW2. You can still find ivory being used to this day in keris hilts. Why not gunongs?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

Why is that Detlef. There are many elaborate gunongs that date post WW2. You can still find ivory being used to this day in keris hilts. Why not gunongs?

I think that a keris is a complete different culture thing. Post WW2 gunongs are made in my opinion for "tourists" and not for locals (maybe I am wrong by this?? ). Elaborate workmanship wasn't expensive to this time but ivory was I think. The gunong in question seems IMHO a representation piece for a local. Or I am so wrong??

[David]

Here's an ivory gunong that i'm pretty sure is also post WW2....
...and while the one on the thread linked below only has layers of ivory as well as MOP, i'm pretty sure it is also post WW2...and you bid on it when it was in auction Detlef...
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13095

[Battara]

Yes I agree David. This one you posted would definitely be post WWII. I base that on the style of mounts on the scabbard, the work on the blade, and especially the type of ferrule.

[Sajen]

Hi David,

yes I bid because I like it! Let us maybe not look to the time these gunongs are made, the question is: for whom are they made? Cant believe that this niece pieces are made for "tourists"!? Am I wrong??

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi David,

yes I bid because I like it! Let us maybe not look to the time these gunongs are made, the question is: for whom are they made? Cant believe that this niece pieces are made for "tourists"!? Am I wrong??

Well, i don't think we can look at one of these questions and not the other Detlef. You put forth the idea/question that post WW2 gunongs were all made for the tourist trade.
"Post WW2 gunongs are made in my opinion for "tourists" and not for locals..."
Personally, i do not think that is true. So we agree on one front and not another i guess. I think there was definitely some call for some indigenous ownership of these weapons after WW2. Of course there is also a high-end "tourist" market, or rather a "collectors" market that i think some makers in the Philippines may still cater to. I cannot find the link (perhaps someone can assist) that was posted a while back of a current Philippines workshop that seemed to be putting out some very nicely made gunongs along with other Moro weapons. If the market is there and there are customers willing to pay for quality materials, the means and know-how do still exist to create it.

[Battara]

You also must understand that there are also datus during WWII and perhaps some of these were made for them.

[David]

Absolutely Jose, and though i don't know the history i would image that datus probably held some esteem even after the war. Anyone have a better grasp on this part of Philippines history?

[David]

For comparison here is an ivory hilted blade that i am pretty sure dates pre-WW2 and probably back as far as the turn of the century. Note the pommel is more elongated. Fittings are silver. Though it's hard to photograph with motion, the sheath is a beautiful chatoyant wood with a real nice flashing grain.
Size: Overall in sheath, 9inches. Blade alone, 5 1/4 inches.

[David]

BTW Robert, i can't get my wife to buy me anything blade related. Perhaps we could work out some kind of cultural exchange...

[Sajen]

[QUOTE=David]Well, i don't think we can look at one of these questions and not the other Detlef. You put forth the idea/question that post WW2 gunongs were all made for the tourist trade.
"Post WW2 gunongs are made in my opinion for "tourists" and not for locals..."
Personally, i do not think that is true. So we agree on one front and not another i guess. I think there was definitely some call for some indigenous ownership of these weapons after WW2.QUOTE]

It was my assumption that after WW2 were made for tourists. When it isn't like this we have agreement in all parts.
I simple have had problems to believe that Roberts gunong was made for tourists.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Battara

You also must understand that there are also datus during WWII and perhaps some of these were made for them.

This is exactly what I think about Roberts gunong!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

For comparison here is an ivory hilted blade that i am pretty sure dates pre-WW2 and probably back as far as the turn of the century. Note the pommel is more elongated. Fittings are silver. Though it's hard to photograph with motion, the sheath is a beautiful chatoyant wood with a real nice flashing grain.
Size: Overall in sheath, 9inches. Blade alone, 5 1/4 inches.

Again David,

this one is not fancy but beautiful and I am green with envy!

[Robert]

Hello everyone and thank you all for your help and the great examples that have been posted. I've again tried to get some decent pictures but as you can tell a photographer I am not. However I do believe that these do show the detailing on this a little better. The picture of the guard shows the sandwich technique used in its construction which I believe is the same used on Jose's example. They also show my poor attempt "my first ever" at etching a blade. I cleaned it with ammonia, heated it slightly and then applied lime juice. At least this way I could get a very poor picture showing its construction. It could be seen quite easily before this by looking at it from an angle but I could not get a picture that it would show in at all before applying the lime juice. I would have had more showing the belt loops construction which is the same as the guards but the batteries in my camera died, I think it was trying to tell me something. The pictures of the scabbard do not do it justice at all, instead of better showing the giltwork, metalwork and color "which is alot deeper in person" they just seem to highlight the flaws. Anyway I hope that they are of some help. It would be nice to have a solid time frame as to when it was made and who it might have been for, but even if it is of later construction I will always hold it as one of my most prized pieces because it was a gift from my best friend, my wife.


Robert

[David]

Well Robert, there was never any question that this gunong is both expertly made and beautiful.

[migueldiaz]

Here's a similar piece, from a Paris museum, Musée du quai Branly (pics att.)...

[mrwizard]

Just for the records: a gunong with fittings of similar style but of rather poor workmanship. I believe it has been made for the travellers market. The seller told me it was brought to europe by an american soldier shortly after WW2.

[Battara]

Good comparison Mr. Wizard - notice the hilt and the waves of the blade, definite indications of very post WWII. Also the guard is blocky and is not cut to the contours of the okir.

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

this one is not fancy but beautiful and I am green with envy!

Frankly, i am less inclined to assess age to gunongs the fancier they get. By fancy i mean all the filigree and extra okir work, not the materials. It seems to me that all the truly older examples tend to be simpler. When, for instance, did this bulbous filigree hilt feature first appear? It does not seem to be a feature of truly older gunongs, or am i wrong?

[David]

Originally Posted by mrwizard

Just for the records: a gunong with fittings of similar style but of rather poor workmanship. I believe it has been made for the travellers market. The seller told me it was brought to europe by an american soldier shortly after WW2.

I agree with Jose that this is probably a very post WW2 example and that the seller exaggerated with his "shortly after WW2" comment (to think that they might ever do such a thing! ).

[David]

While we're at it, when did the gunong itself first appear? I have asked this question before with no solid result, but i guess it doesn't hurt to keep asking. :-) Has anyone seen any gunongs that can be safely dated before the late 19th century?

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

Yes I agree David. This one you posted would definitely be post WWII. I base that on the style of mounts on the scabbard, the work on the blade, and especially the type of ferrule.

I think we both agree on the relative age on this blade, but if you look at the Krieger Plate at #9 you can see similar blade work at least dates to 1926 when this plate was made.