Whistlinbill's Collection #4: African

Lee · 27th January 2012, 05:46 PM

And an assortment of African items for perusal and comment:

Rick · 27th January 2012, 05:50 PM

AF4 is a rice cutter; most likely not African .

kahnjar1 · 29th January 2012, 04:19 AM

Another Rice cutter for comparison. SE Asian I believe.
Regards Stu

VANDOO · 29th January 2012, 04:38 AM

AF3 IS A SONGYE AX, APPEARS TO BE COVERED WITH MONITOR LIZZARD SKIN. HAS ONE FACE WORKED INTO THE BLADE ON THE SIDE IN THE PICTURE. NICE FORM.
I AGREE RICE CUTTER LIKELY FROM THE AREA OF VIETNAM, CAMBODIA, THAILAND, LAOS ECT.
AF2 HAS NILLO WORK LIKE I HAVE SEEN IN MOROCCO ON THE BLADE SO IT MAY BE FROM THAT AREA.?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th January 2012, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

And an assortment of African items for perusal and comment:

Salaams ~ The wavy blade. It looks Indian possibly Bidri. Is this gazzelle horn a replacement hilt?

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

whistlinbill · 29th January 2012, 08:58 PM

Hello, Ibraham!
I don't think the horn is a replacement--it looked OK when I bought it, and
I looked pretty hard at it then! (But, to tell the truth, I do have a little chamber of horrors down in my basement--things I shouldn't have bought, that I thought they were something other than what they were--that keeps me humble....)
Thanks,
Bill

Lee · 30th January 2012, 07:27 PM

and the next group...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st January 2012, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whistlinbill

Hello, Ibraham!
I don't think the horn is a replacement--it looked OK when I bought it, and
I looked pretty hard at it then! (But, to tell the truth, I do have a little chamber of horrors down in my basement--things I shouldn't have bought, that I thought they were something other than what they were--that keeps me humble....)
Thanks,
Bill

Salaams Bill I am surprised that you can get into your basement ! Its full of weapons !!!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Lee · 2nd February 2012, 03:25 PM

... and a few more ...

Rick · 2nd February 2012, 03:48 PM

Hi Bill, I'd be interested in knowing over what time period did you accumulate all this gorgeous stuff ?

How long ago ?

whistlinbill · 5th February 2012, 10:15 PM

Rick, I started around 1978 or so, and just sort of continued. I did buy a couple collections of (mostly) West Coast African along the way, but most of the things came along at gun shows--maybe one or two per show. Went to
a lot of shows in those old days....
And, since there was little in print on identification, practically none of us
knew what we were looking at! That worked both ways--for the buyer,
the purchase was mostly blind ("Is that thing in Stone?"). And for the seller,
the buyers for unidentified ethnic arms were lots scarcer than, say buyers
of Bowie knives or German military rifles (both of which I collected, at one
time or another.)
It helped quite a lot to have a partner (Hank Reinhardt) who had studied
ancient arms AND ethnographic arms. I think Hank knew every medieval sword in the world by its first name!
Hank and I sold our business (reproduction medieval swords, renaissance swords, etc.) at the end of 1995, and I picked up very little in the way of arms in this field after then.
Thanks,
Bill

Rick · 6th February 2012, 03:31 AM

Thank you for the background Bill; those must have been heady days indeed .

I didn't start in earnest until the mid '90's .
Lucky dog, you ...

Rick

Mauro · 17th February 2012, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

... and a few more ...

AF16 is my favourite. It is attributed to the Shankilla tribes, a hunter-gathered group that lives in eastern Sudan and western Ethiopia. Lovely examples. I love all the african blades and their creativity. Very difficult to establish the age. Thanks to share

VANDOO · 17th February 2012, 05:37 AM

AFRICA IS NOT MY STRONG AREA BUT I CAN IDENTIFY A FEW AS NO ONE MORE KNOWLEGABLE HAS IDENTIFIED THEM ALL YET.
AF9 AND AF14 ARE NAGALA SWORDS OFTEN REFERRED TO AS EXECUTIONERS SWORDS.
AF6 AND AF10 ARE POTO SWORDS AF6 STILL HAS THE CAT SKIN FETISH BALL ON THE POMMEL, LOOKS ORIGINAL
AF7 TRADITIONAL MASAI SEMI

I INCLUDE A PICTURE OF A NAGALA EXECUTION. NOTE THE HEAD IS IN A BASKET ATTACHED TO A SMALL TREE. WHEN THE HEAD IS CUT OFF THE TREE SPRINGS UP AND THROWS THE HEAD THRU THE AIR. UNFORTUNATELY I DON'T KNOW THE REASONS BEHIND THIS PERHAPS TO GET RID OF VENGFUL SPIRITS?? ALSO NOTE THEY HAVE THE FULL BAND AND DANCE TROOP FOR THE PERFORMANCE SO PERHAPS THEY JUST DID IT THIS WAY FOR FUN.??

Mauro · 17th February 2012, 11:58 PM

These are the attribution resulting from the last book of Mark Felix and Jan Elsen Fatal Beauty.Traditional weapons from central Africa- Taipei exibition. They are among the greatest experts for african weapons.
AF6 - Ngombè-Poto; AF7 – Masai post ca.1950; AF8 – Kete or Bena Lulua (different attribution in different books but your is a nice examples with a nice handle): AF9 – AF10 Ngombè - (may be also Ngala. they are non so different); AF11 – Gbaya; AF12 – Sudan Shankilla (?): I have two similar ones in my collection; AF13 – AF14 - Ngombè; AF16 – Shankilla; AF17- Ngombè.

If you get tired of the Shankilla let me know. Nice the story of how you collected these knives. thanks

whistlinbill · 20th February 2012, 01:21 AM

Gentlemen, thank you! I very much appreciate the time and effort you are
putting into helping me--can I buy you a drink at Baltimore?
Bill

whistlinbill · 20th February 2012, 01:23 AM

Gentlemen, thank you so much for all the scholarship and effort you have put into helping me! Can I buy you a drink at Baltimore?
Bill

ariel · 20th February 2012, 03:19 AM

On the very first pic: are those true axes or recades?

Mauro · 20th February 2012, 08:08 AM

Axes are not my speciality. In my opinion they are cerimonial axes from different parts of Africa. If I remember well AF3 is from Songye people, a nice example. The knife AF2 is from Algeria or Tunisia, from the end of XIX century or the beginning of XX century.
Italy is quite far from Baltimore but in case I shall ever travel overthere I shall be glad to have a drink together.

27th January 2012, 05:46 PM	#1
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 913	Whistlinbill's Collection #4: African And an assortment of African items for perusal and comment: Attached Images

29th January 2012, 04:19 AM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Another Rice cutter for comparison. SE Asian I believe. Regards Stu Attached Images

30th January 2012, 07:27 PM	#7
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 913	and the next group... Attached Images

2nd February 2012, 03:25 PM	#9
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 913	... and a few more ... Attached Images

17th February 2012, 05:37 AM	#14
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	AFRICA IS NOT MY STRONG AREA BUT I CAN IDENTIFY A FEW AS NO ONE MORE KNOWLEGABLE HAS IDENTIFIED THEM ALL YET. AF9 AND AF14 ARE NAGALA SWORDS OFTEN REFERRED TO AS EXECUTIONERS SWORDS. AF6 AND AF10 ARE POTO SWORDS AF6 STILL HAS THE CAT SKIN FETISH BALL ON THE POMMEL, LOOKS ORIGINAL AF7 TRADITIONAL MASAI SEMI I INCLUDE A PICTURE OF A NAGALA EXECUTION. NOTE THE HEAD IS IN A BASKET ATTACHED TO A SMALL TREE. WHEN THE HEAD IS CUT OFF THE TREE SPRINGS UP AND THROWS THE HEAD THRU THE AIR. UNFORTUNATELY I DON'T KNOW THE REASONS BEHIND THIS PERHAPS TO GET RID OF VENGFUL SPIRITS?? ALSO NOTE THEY HAVE THE FULL BAND AND DANCE TROOP FOR THE PERFORMANCE SO PERHAPS THEY JUST DID IT THIS WAY FOR FUN.?? Attached Images

27th January 2012, 05:50 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	AF4 is a rice cutter; most likely not African .

29th January 2012, 04:38 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	AF3 IS A SONGYE AX, APPEARS TO BE COVERED WITH MONITOR LIZZARD SKIN. HAS ONE FACE WORKED INTO THE BLADE ON THE SIDE IN THE PICTURE. NICE FORM. I AGREE RICE CUTTER LIKELY FROM THE AREA OF VIETNAM, CAMBODIA, THAILAND, LAOS ECT. AF2 HAS NILLO WORK LIKE I HAVE SEEN IN MOROCCO ON THE BLADE SO IT MAY BE FROM THAT AREA.?

29th January 2012, 08:58 PM	#6
whistlinbill Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 24	Hello, Ibraham! I don't think the horn is a replacement--it looked OK when I bought it, and I looked pretty hard at it then! (But, to tell the truth, I do have a little chamber of horrors down in my basement--things I shouldn't have bought, that I thought they were something other than what they were--that keeps me humble....) Thanks, Bill

2nd February 2012, 03:48 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Hi Bill, I'd be interested in knowing over what time period did you accumulate all this gorgeous stuff ? How long ago ?

5th February 2012, 10:15 PM	#11
whistlinbill Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 24	Rick, I started around 1978 or so, and just sort of continued. I did buy a couple collections of (mostly) West Coast African along the way, but most of the things came along at gun shows--maybe one or two per show. Went to a lot of shows in those old days.... And, since there was little in print on identification, practically none of us knew what we were looking at! That worked both ways--for the buyer, the purchase was mostly blind ("Is that thing in Stone?"). And for the seller, the buyers for unidentified ethnic arms were lots scarcer than, say buyers of Bowie knives or German military rifles (both of which I collected, at one time or another.) It helped quite a lot to have a partner (Hank Reinhardt) who had studied ancient arms AND ethnographic arms. I think Hank knew every medieval sword in the world by its first name! Hank and I sold our business (reproduction medieval swords, renaissance swords, etc.) at the end of 1995, and I picked up very little in the way of arms in this field after then. Thanks, Bill

6th February 2012, 03:31 AM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Thank you for the background Bill; those must have been heady days indeed . I didn't start in earnest until the mid '90's . Lucky dog, you ... Rick

17th February 2012, 11:58 PM	#15
Mauro Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 83	These are the attribution resulting from the last book of Mark Felix and Jan Elsen Fatal Beauty.Traditional weapons from central Africa- Taipei exibition. They are among the greatest experts for african weapons. AF6 - Ngombè-Poto; AF7 – Masai post ca.1950; AF8 – Kete or Bena Lulua (different attribution in different books but your is a nice examples with a nice handle): AF9 – AF10 Ngombè - (may be also Ngala. they are non so different); AF11 – Gbaya; AF12 – Sudan Shankilla (?): I have two similar ones in my collection; AF13 – AF14 - Ngombè; AF16 – Shankilla; AF17- Ngombè. If you get tired of the Shankilla let me know. Nice the story of how you collected these knives. thanks

20th February 2012, 01:21 AM	#16
whistlinbill Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 24	Gentlemen, thank you! I very much appreciate the time and effort you are putting into helping me--can I buy you a drink at Baltimore? Bill

20th February 2012, 01:23 AM	#17
whistlinbill Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 24	Gentlemen, thank you so much for all the scholarship and effort you have put into helping me! Can I buy you a drink at Baltimore? Bill

20th February 2012, 03:19 AM	#18
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	On the very first pic: are those true axes or recades?

20th February 2012, 08:08 AM	#19
Mauro Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 83	Axes are not my speciality. In my opinion they are cerimonial axes from different parts of Africa. If I remember well AF3 is from Songye people, a nice example. The knife AF2 is from Algeria or Tunisia, from the end of XIX century or the beginning of XX century. Italy is quite far from Baltimore but in case I shall ever travel overthere I shall be glad to have a drink together.